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Devil`s Advocate.
February 27th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Seriously.

He had good ideas, but he told them to wrong people, so they crucified him.

And he died there. And haven`t been resurrected, or anything. It`s just fairy tales.


Get real, people!

SirRuben
March 2nd, 2007, 11:03 PM
And i saw in a newspaper a few days ago that George Lucas have found two caskets he believes was the ones Jesus and Mary Magdalene was buried in..

But i can't find any sources..

*Edit, i found one*

Meanwhile, James Cameron is getting set to unveil a new documentary that not only argues Jesus Christ had a child with Mary Magdalene, a la "The Da Vinci Code,'' but the self-proclaimed "King of the World'' claims he's found Jesus' casket. The Catholic League may need to get an extra fax machine to deal with this one. Though Cameron's next feature, "Avatar,'' has just been scheduled for release by Fox in May 2009, it's a fairly safe bet his doc will not be going out on the Fox Faith label.

http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/

Search for "jesus" in the text.


*edit 2*

here's some more:

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2007/02/26/070226170455.29857e84.html

Uber Geek
March 4th, 2007, 12:41 PM
I dont doubt for a second that Jesus Christ existed, the only question is was he the son of God or was he just a Moral philosopher. I prefer the latter, also there is no questioning the fact that the Bible promotes a healthy social attitude although something in it drives men to kill.

Or wage War.

Wierd eh!

Alice Shade
March 4th, 2007, 01:50 PM
Something?

It was intended for same thing as Qu`ran and Torah - to promote a certain nation and certain way of life, no more and no less.

Unregistered
April 14th, 2007, 01:52 PM
Sometimes :P

Unregistered
May 21st, 2007, 07:34 AM
If Jesus is dead, where is His grave? And more to the point where is His body?

Erasmus
May 21st, 2007, 12:52 PM
If Jesus is dead, where is His grave? And more to the point where is His body?

This is an illogical argument for the continued existence of Jesus.

I could equally state that unless you can point me to the grave and body of King Arthur I will assume he is still alive and jousting to this very day.

jon_hill987
May 21st, 2007, 02:57 PM
King Arthur is still alive and jousting to this very day.

You know it is true!

Anyways, yes you are quite right, bodies do rot, even bones eventually.

Unregistered
May 21st, 2007, 05:16 PM
I think it is fair to say that Jesus of Nazareth is the most influential figure in history or at least amongst the most influential, therefore, you would expect that he would have a grave that you could visit like the grave of Mohamed. Apologies for the spelling if I've got it wrong.

Wikipedia says about Arthur, "He was said to have been born in the 5th century. There is disagreement about whether Arthur, or a model for him, ever actually existed, or whether he is a mythic figure who has been given a historicised setting."

With Jesus of Nazareth there is no doubt about the reality of His life, unless you deliberately choose to ignore the facts recorded not just by the Bible but by about 5000 other sources. So surely someone that well known would have a grave site that people would make pilgrimage to... if of course, He died and did not come back to life. The reality of Jesus of Nazareth is evident daily when we look at the year. Granted there may be 5 years discrepancy between the believed date of Jesus birth and the calendar date, but regardless of that, the whole calendar is arranged central to His birth. If Jesus was a myth, then surely, the calendar would not have been rearranged to reflect how important His birth was.

Erasmus
May 21st, 2007, 07:05 PM
Where did I say Jesus was a myth or never existed?

I said your argument that he is still alive because we have no body or grave is fallacious. There are a multitude of famous and influential people who have no marked grave. It does not follow that this means they are still alive.

If the choice is "the whereabouts of his remains are unknown because they were hidden, or lost in the passage of two thousand years" or "the whereabouts of his remains are unknown because he came back from the dead", then Occam's razor, not to mention basic logic dictate one should assume the former.

After all, I could put forward my own theory: "his body was stolen by Aliens." The fact that this theory adequately explains the missing body and grave does not make it viable in any way.

AaronD
May 21st, 2007, 07:42 PM
Not to mention that the Bible is not an accurate source of historical facts, and that the calendar being set up according to his death is more do to the sudden rise of Christianity and its followers, and that the calendar itself was (in all likelyhood) not set up until a couple centuries after his death.

Unregistered
June 1st, 2007, 01:41 AM
Jesus existed, as a normal human being. It was later that his biography was distorted and made into a divine tale. He's pretty much like Socrates as he was probably a philosopher (like many people of his time). Because there weren't alot of accurate sources regarding his life, it was really easy for the church to use him for their own purposes.

Lord_Jereth
July 6th, 2007, 11:36 PM
With Jesus of Nazareth there is no doubt about the reality of His life, unless you deliberately choose to ignore the facts recorded not just by the Bible but by about 5000 other sources.

Wait ... what? Name these sources. If you're counting the sources AFTER the fact they can not be used as proofs of his supposed existence - they tend to be sources from other sources from others sources, etc. At best, hearsay. In actual fact, there are only two supposedly corroborating sources, that of the theorized 'Q' Document:

The Gospel of Q: This is believed by many theologians to be a collection of sayings, "which included moral teachings, prophetic admonitions and controversy stories, plus a few miracles and anecdotes." 1 These had been transmitted orally and are generally believed to have been first written down by his followers circa 50 CE. Unfortunately, the gospel does not include any dates for Jesus' life. If Jesus had been executed circa 30 CE, then many who saw and heard him preach would still have been alive and could have verified that the gospel was accurate. But a case can be made that the gospel was assembled out of sayings from the 1st or 2nd century BCE.

And that of Josephus:

Flavius Josephus: He was a Jewish historian who was born in 37 CE. In his book, Antiquities of the Jews, he described Jesus' as a wise man who was crucified by Pilate. Most historians believe that the paragraph in which he describes Jesus is partly or completely a forgery that was inserted into the text by an unknown Christian. The passage "appears out of context, thereby breaking the flow of the narrative."

The passage in question that is supposed to corroborate the existence of Jesus is widely accepted as a forgery perpetrated by Eusebius, writing in about 324 AD, some three and a quarter centuries after the fact. None before him quoted such a passage as having had existed in Josephus' Antiquities.

No other contemporary authors wrote about Him. Doesn't it strike you as strange that he (Jesus) was supposed to have been such an influential person and yet none of his contemporaries, including as many as 40 Roman historians and countless Jewish historians at the time, actually wrote about him? There were several Jewish historians of the time and location in question who should have written about him who's manuscripts have survived the ravages of time, yet none speak of this figure. Roman documents of the time do not reflect his trial or subsequent execution. How extremely odd. And, in fact, the biblical accounts of his (Jesus') life and death were not even put to manuscript until some 40 to 80 years after his supposed death. Again, how very odd.


So surely someone that well known would have a grave site that people would make pilgrimage to... if of course, He died and did not come back to life.

If his life and death are but the stuff of folk tales and legend, this statement is, at best, chop-logic.


The reality of Jesus of Nazareth is evident daily when we look at the year. Granted there may be 5 years discrepancy between the believed date of Jesus birth and the calendar date, but regardless of that, the whole calendar is arranged central to His birth. If Jesus was a myth, then surely, the calendar would not have been rearranged to reflect how important His birth was.

In fact, the bible does not quote a date for Jesus' birth except to state that it happened between one event and another. Between these two supposedly historical occurances spans a time of around 30 years or so. +/- 30 years isn't even close to your 5 year discrepancy theory. As for the calender as we know it, it was actually set as a standard by Constantine in the 4th century. Until then the Roman calender was widely used. As a point of fact, the supposed Roman census that forced Mirim (Mary) and Joseph to return to Bethlehem to be counted is also not corroborated by Roman documents of the time. No such census was taken during this period.

The Julian calendar was introduced by Julius Caesar in 45 BC. It was in common use until the 1500s, when countries started changing to the Gregorian Calendar. However, some countries (for example, Greece and Russia) used it into this century, and the Orthodox church in Russia still uses it, as do some other Orthodox churches.

Let me preface what I am about to suggest by saying that I mean you no personal disrespect, but if you are going to come here and try to argue points such as these you might want to do some actual historical research on the subject before hand. Regurgitating what you are taught from the pulpit or hear from your fellows will not float very well here as their accounts tend also to be based on faith and not historical fact, themselves.

Peace -

:icon_cool: LJ

Lord_Jereth
July 7th, 2007, 04:35 AM
Jesus existed, as a normal human being.

This is, at best, a hopeful assumption; an assertion of wishful thinking. There is no proof for this assertion and, actually, quite a lot to the contrary, as I stated in my prior post.

It was later that his biography was distorted and made into a divine tale.

It was only later that his "biography", if you wish to loosely call it that, was written at all. Historians argue between 40 to 80 years between the approximate death of said figure and the first of "Peter's" manuscripts to be written.

He's pretty much like Socrates as he was probably a philosopher (like many people of his time).

Socrates' existence has been corroborated to have existed by many sources unlike your Jesus.

Because there weren't alot of accurate sources regarding his life, it was really easy for the church to use him for their own purposes.

It was really easy for the church to use him for their own purposes because there were NO accurate sources for his life. They could, in fact, pretty much make it up as they went along and/or adapt (then) contemporary and ancient legend to fit the story at hand.

The Jungian Universal Archetype Hero
_______________________________

Many currents fed the Jesus myth, like streams and tributaries joining to form a major river. In order to compete with rival gods Jesus had to match them point for point, miracle for miracle. Jesus the Christ, King of Kings, Light of the World, High Priest forever, Good Shepherd, Judge of the quick and the dead, and the Saviour of Mankind is nothing less than nothing other than an omnibus edition of all that had gone before, the final product of ancient religious syncretism.
In essence Jesus Christ is like every other ancient god, a personification of Principals and Forces. More than anything else, the figure of Jesus symbolized and personified Just Law, Divine Punishment and Reward. The myth did not require the happenstance of a genuine human life to get it going which is one reason why, as a human being, the superhero is at best only partially formed, even after passing through several revisions and re-workings.
Every miracle, every pronouncement and every micro-drama of the godman's supposed ministry can be shown to be a midrashic creation, teased out of Jewish scripture and a handful of supplementary sources.
Not a scrap of an authentic human story is to be found. And why would there be? Jesus the man did not exist. He is a collective work of fiction and the culmination of two centuries of pious aspirations.

Let us bring this into perspective. Jesus Christ/Jesus of Nazareth/Yeshue Bin Mirim ...


WHO WAS HE?



- He was born of the virgin Maya, who was considered the "Queen of Heaven.

- He was of royal descent.

- He crushed a serpent's head.

- He performed miracles and wonders, healled the sick, fed 500 men from a
"small basket of cakes," and walked on water.
- He abolished idolatry, was a "soweer of the word," and preached "the
establishment of a kingdom of righteousness."
- He taught chastity, temperance, tolerannce, compassion, love, and the
equality of all.
- He was transfigured on a mount.

- He was crucified in a sin-atonement, suuffered for three days in hell, and
was resurrected.
- He ascended to "heaven."
>


HE WAS...BUDDHA





WHO WAS HE?



- He contributed the name of Jesus Christ. He and his once-and-future
Father, are frequently interchangeable in the mythos ("I and my Father are
one").
- He was born of the virgin Meri on Decemmber 25th in a cave/manger, with his
birth being announced by a star in the East and attended by three wise men.
- He was a child teacher in the Temple annd was baptized when he was 30 years
old. He was also baptized by "Anup the Baptizer," who becomes "John the
Baptist."
- He had 12 disciples.

- He performed miracles and raised one maan, el-Azar-us, from the dead.

- He walked on water.

- He was transfigured on the Mount.

- He was crucified, buried in a tomb and resurrected.

- He was also the "Way, the Truth, tthe Light, the Messiah, God's Anointed
Son, the Son of Man, the Good Shepherd, the Lamb of God, the Word" etc.
- He was "the Fisher," and was associated with the Lamb, Lion and Fish.

- His personal epithet was "Iusa,&quuot; the "ever-becoming son" of "Ptah," the
"Father."
- HE was called "the KRST," or "Anointed One," long before the Christians
duplicated the story.
- In the catacombs at Rome are pictures oof Him as a baby being held by his
virgin mother.


HE WAS... the Egyptian God HORUS



(The ancient Egyptians also adopted the cross as a religious symbol of
their pagan gods. Countless Egyptians drawings depict themselves holding
crosses in their hands. Among them, the Egyptian savior Horus is depicted
holding a cross in his hand. He is also depicted as an infant sitting on his
mother's knee with a cross on the seat they occupy. The most common of the
crosses used by these pagan Egyptians, the crux ansata, was later adopted by
the Christians)






WHO WAS HE?



- He was born on December 25th.

- He was considered a great traveling teaacher and master.

- He had 12 companions or disciples.

- He performed miracles.

- He was buried in a tomb.

- After three days he rose again.

- His resurrection was celebrated every yyear.

- He was called "the Good Shepherd.&"

- He was considered "the Way, the Trruth and the Light, the Redeemer, the
Savior, the Messiah."
- He was identified with both the Lion annd the Lamb.

- His sacred day was Sunday, "the Loord's Day," hundreds of years before the
appearance of Christ.
- He had his principal festival on what wwas later to become Easter, at which
time he was resurrected.
- His religion had a Eucharist or "LLord's Supper."



HE WAS... MITHRA



("He who will not eat of my body and drink of my blood, so that he will be
made on with me and I with him, the same shall not know salvation." An
inscription to Mithras which parallels John 6:53-54. This inscription is
inside the vatican... in the tomb of saint peter.)






WHO WAS HE?



- Born of a Virgin

- His father was a carpenter.

- His birth was attended by angels, wise men and shepherds, and he was
presented with gold, frankincense and myrrh.
- He was persecuted by a tyrant who orderred the slaughter of thousands of
infants.
- He was of royal descent.

- He was baptized in A river.

- He worked miracles and wonders.

- He raised the dead and healed lepers, tthe deaf and the blind.

- He used parables to teach the people abbout charity and love.

- "He lived poor and he loved the pooor."

- He was transfigured in front of his dissciples.

- In some traditions he died on a tree orr was crucified between two thieves.

- He rose from the dead and ascended to hheaven.

- He is called the "Shepherd God&quoot; and "Lord of lords," and was considered
"the Redeemer, Firstborn, Sin Bearer, Liberator, Universal Word."
- He is the second person of the Trinity,, and proclaimed himself the
"Resurrection" and the "way to the Father."
- He was considered the "Beginning, the Middle and the End," ("Alpha and
Omega"), as well as being omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. - His
disciples bestowed upon him the title "Jezeus," meaning "pure essence."
- He is to return to do battle with the &"Prince of Evil," who will desolate
the earth


HE WAS... KRISHNA



(The similarities between the Christian character and the Indian messiah are
many. Indeed, Massey finds over 100 similarities between the Hindu and
Christian saviors, and Graves, who includes the various noncanonical gospels
in his analysis, lists over 300 likenesses. It should be noted that a common
earlier English spelling of Krishna was "Christna," which reveals its
relation to '"Christ." It should also be noted that, like the Jewish godman,
many people have believed in a historical, carnalized Krishna)






WHO WAS HE?



- God was his father

- He was born in a cave or cowshed.

- A human woman, a virgin, was his motherr.

- His birth was prophesized by a star in the heavens.

- At a marriage ceremony, he performed thhe miracle of converting water into
wine.
- He was powerless to perform miracles inn his hometown.

- His followers were born-again through bbaptism in water.

- He rode triumphantly into a city on a ddonkey. Tradition records that the
inhabitants waved palm leaves.
- He had 12 disciples.

- He was accused of licentious behavior.<

- He was killed near the time of the Vernnal Equinox, about MAR-21.

- He died "as a sacrifice for the siins of the world."

- He was hung on a tree, stake, or cross..

- After death, he descended into hell.
- On the third day after his death, he reeturned to life.

- The cave where he was laid was visited by three of his female followers.

- He later ascended to heaven.

- His titles: God made flesh. Savior of tthe world Son of God.

- He is "God made man," and equual to the Father.

- He will return in the last days.

- He will judge the human race at that tiime.

- Humans are separated from God by originnal sin. The godman's sacrificial
death reunites the believer with God and atones for the original sin.


HE WAS... OSIRIS-DIONYSUS

Getting the picture, yet?

:icon_cool: LJ

Alice Shade
July 7th, 2007, 06:50 AM
Ahh!

I`ve been looking for that list forever. Saw it somewhere, but could never find it after.

Lord_Jereth
July 7th, 2007, 09:03 AM
:D

:icon_cool: LJ

I HATE googlism
July 25th, 2007, 11:46 PM
you people have nothing better to do ok. all i have left to say is i HATE Googlism

AaronD
July 26th, 2007, 12:07 AM
You, apparently, have nothing better to do then sit at your computer typing how much you hate Googlism all day.

SAVAGE
July 27th, 2007, 12:20 AM
Seriously.

He had good ideas, but he told them to wrong people, so they crucified him.

And he died there. And haven`t been resurrected, or anything. It`s just fairy tales.


Get real, people!

The fact is that Yeshua the desert dweller, probabbly never existed, due to the lack of evidence of towns such as bethlehem, herod never ordered any kind of killing of babes and noone aprt from the bible twits wrote anything down about the miracles.

I have found that this sort of dad wankery was created at Nicea at the first council of little boy lovers...err I mean Catolicks.

Judaism, Christianity, Islam and even the Bahai cults all originate from the covenant between Abe and Yahweh.

There was a god in ancient egypt (a favourite place of the Romans funnily enough) I believe it was horus who was born of a virgin, walked on water died, was ressurected and will come back to judge everyone.

The book of the dead (the Egyptian Dad Wankery) would give a good idea as to how the Heavens Meanage a trois came about.

So you cant kill a fairy tale......long live Captain Fucking Hook.