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shinsukato
December 6th, 2008, 02:23 AM
I started another thread on a different subject, and therein I mentioned that I was trying to deconvert a friend of mine. This was met with a negative response that I did not expect, and I think I'd like for people to expound on it a little more for me.

Should atheists be militant? Of course phrasing it like that makes it sound much more extreme than I really mean, but I like the sound of it.

As atheists I think most of us would say that religion (certainly the Abrahamic varieties) is wrong. The beliefs are ridiculous, outlandish and in some cases falsifiable. The religious are making assertions that they cannot make, and are believing in their assertions with great vigor.

Should we actively try to change their minds? Should real actions be taken to try and make them give up their religion and literal beliefs?

I was raised devoutly Catholic, and I WAS devoutly catholic for a very long time. Having deconverted some time ago I find that I am still under the influence of that religion. On some level I still accept jesus as my lord and savior, on some level I still believe that I am being watched and loved by God. The conditioning that I was subjected to as a child at the hands of the catholic church has instilled in me a worldview that I know is false, but that I cannot rid myself of. It's a confusing feeling.

It is for this reason I feel we should do everything we can to try and deconvert the religious people of the world, if not for their sake then for the sake of the children that they would brainwash otherwise. As atheists, I don't think we are forcing a viewpoint on them, we are arguing that they have no reason to hold theirs. I do not intend to raise my children as atheists. I intend to present them with all the information and let them make up their own minds, if such a thing is possible. I'm sure that is what most self respecting atheists would do as well.

I've gotten a little longwinded here so I'll stop, though I'm sure there's more I could say. What do you think, is it wrong for atheists to try and deconvert others?

Loki
December 6th, 2008, 02:49 AM
Not too long-winded, I read most of it :D

Damned good topic by the way.


I would say no. Live and let live. If someone wants to believe in god/s then let them. No worries.

If their beliefs start to impinge on my life? That's different.

I'm not a militant atheist :D

Chritter
December 6th, 2008, 09:28 AM
As atheists I think most of us would say that religion (certainly the Abrahamic varieties) is wrong. The beliefs are ridiculous, outlandish and in some cases falsifiable. The religious are making assertions that they cannot make, and are believing in their assertions with great vigor.

I am an atheist and I do not believe religion to be wrong. I believe that the Church is wrong. I believe that the process, procedures and sanctimonious ways of the Church are wrong. I believe the fanatic believers of the Church who insist upon pressing ideals that the consider to be infallible upon those that do not want it or have no better idea to consider are wrong.

Religion, however, is none of this. Religion is a set of ideals that one believes in oneself as to the true purpose and matter of the universe and world around them. Religion is a human defense mechanism that helps the heart, mind and soul deal with things that would otherwise be too difficult to deal with normally. To believe that God is ever present provides comfort in uncomfortable situations. To believe that there is an afterlife full of fluffy clouds and angels provides relief from a fear of death. To believe that one must follow the commandments in order to get to this afterlife is structure for those that cannot maintain it without.

Religion is not the problem. And while these examples are geared more towards the Christian religion, this goes for all religions, from Christian to Pagan.

Should we actively try to change their minds? Should real actions be taken to try and make them give up their religion and literal beliefs?

We should not try to change anything except the way they go about spreading it. We can offer up our beliefs, and cause them to question their own. If this causes them to give up their religion in search of something else, or if this only causes them to research more into their own religion and become more suited into it, they are enriched for it.


I was raised devoutly Catholic, and I WAS devoutly catholic for a very long time. Having deconverted some time ago I find that I am still under the influence of that religion. On some level I still accept jesus as my lord and savior, on some level I still believe that I am being watched and loved by God. The conditioning that I was subjected to as a child at the hands of the catholic church has instilled in me a worldview that I know is false, but that I cannot rid myself of. It's a confusing feeling.


I'm Sorry.

It is for this reason I feel we should do everything we can to try and deconvert the religious people of the world, if not for their sake then for the sake of the children that they would brainwash otherwise. As atheists, I don't think we are forcing a viewpoint on them, we are arguing that they have no reason to hold theirs. I do not intend to raise my children as atheists. I intend to present them with all the information and let them make up their own minds, if such a thing is possible. I'm sure that is what most self respecting atheists would do as well.

You are not trying to DEconvert. You are trying to CONVERT. You are attempting to change their beliefs into something else in as converting them to atheism. I am glad you have come to a much more sane conclusion for your children. This is a good thing.

Tsar Phalanxia
December 6th, 2008, 11:29 AM
Define millitant. As in car bombings and shit? No way. That destroys one of the core principles of atheism, that you can be good w/o God, and that Religion causes harm. Millitant as in being crtical of religion?... Yes. I wouldn't do it to anyone personal, i.e. let faith get in the way of friendships, as like I said before, atheists are above that.

It's important to recognise the moral teachings and benefits of religion, e.g. 98& of what Jesus says is good and makes sense (The other 2% is some crazy shit about women's rights), but you have to get across to people that it's the dogma, and the rest of the Bible (In this example) that you have a problem with. As a rule, most people will agree with you, and that is the first step to "enlightening" them. A nice way to put this is to say that you're being moral without fear of hell/reward of heaven, so you could say that you're more moral than said Theist. (Don't press that too far, but get them thinking about it.)

The first step is building up a cosy support base, then pushing for the gradual separation of church in state (E.g. no prayer in schools) I was a light theist for some time, simply because I went to a school, not a CoE, or Catholic school, but a state school where we had assemblies about Jesus, and I believed it. I think about 1% of the population in the UK goes to regular CoE services, yet 75% of people believe in God. In my opinion, this is due to it being taught to us in school, with no significant challenge at any point in life. Were it separated, I think the numbers would drop pretty fast.

tagnostic
December 6th, 2008, 06:21 PM
there are many paths
to the top of the mountain
each can be straight
depending on your starting point
all lead directly to the top of the mountain
the only one who doesn't get there
is the one who runs around the mountain
telling everyone else, their path is wrong

Tsar Phalanxia
December 6th, 2008, 09:16 PM
there are many paths
to the top of the mountain
each can be straight
depending on your starting point
all lead directly to the top of the mountain
the only one who doesn't get there
is the one who runs around the mountain
telling everyone else, their path is wrong

Indeed. But shouldn't we speak out against the person pushing as many people off the mountain as possible?

rmw
December 6th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Shinsukato, I was one of the people who questioned why you were trying to deconvert your friend. It wasn't an attack against you--I was genuinely curious about your reasons. That being said, I guess I would say there is a fine line to walk when it comes to deconverting people from religion to atheism. My opinion is if people wish to believe whatever they believe, and as long as they are not harming someone in the process, then to each their own. That does not necessarily preclude a rigourous discussion of the different aspects of theism vs. atheism, but if it were me, I'd keep it to a presentation of the facts, and not a "I'm right, you're wrong" diatribe.

I will say I disagree with your argument that by deconversion will help future generations. While religion tends to be "inherited," the beliefs one was raised with are not the only factor in retaining or losing your religiosity. You stated that you were raised Catholic, but are now an atheist. I applaud you on stating that you intend to raise your children with a choice in practicing or not practicing a religion. I would say you should present your friend with that same choice: lay out the information, have discussions, but be okay if he/she still chooses to follow their religion.

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 07:30 PM
Indeed. But shouldn't we speak out against the person pushing as many people off the mountain as possible?

The faithful are trying to get to the top, just like you. Many of them will try, at any cost, to get you to join their path, because they believe with every fibre of their being that it is the only one. They are wrong, but don't hate them. They are trying to help, fundementally. They are just ignorant. They don't deserve to be pushed off teh mountain by you, either.

Everyone has the right to choose their path. Talk to them, if you think that your path is easier, or faster, or more direct, or if you think that their path will become too difficult for them, but remmember: all paths lead to the top. Even ones that you wouldn't think.

Loki
December 7th, 2008, 08:30 PM
The faithful are trying to get to the top, just like you. Many of them will try, at any cost, to get you to join their path, because they believe with every fibre of their being that it is the only one. They are wrong, but don't hate them. They are trying to help, fundementally. They are just ignorant. They don't deserve to be pushed off teh mountain by you, either.

Everyone has the right to choose their path. Talk to them, if you think that your path is easier, or faster, or more direct, or if you think that their path will become too difficult for them, but remmember: all paths lead to the top. Even ones that you wouldn't think.

That's an interesting post Al - all paths lead to enlightenment?

It would be nice to think so but what happens if we climb that mountain and find nothing but clouds?

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 08:41 PM
That's an interesting post Al - all paths lead to enlightenment?

It would be nice to think so but what happens if we climb that mountain and find nothing but clouds?

That would be crushingly disapointing, but given the fact that you don't know which paths are dead ends, do you really have the right to tell people which to choose? You might be wrong and they might be right, or vice versa. In the absence of knowledge of a given path's end, it is always more just to respect free will.

Tsar Phalanxia
December 7th, 2008, 08:45 PM
That would be crushingly disapointing, but given the fact that you don't know which paths are dead ends, do you really have the right to tell people which to choose? You might be wrong and they might be right, or vice versa. In the absence of knowledge of a given path's end, it is always more just to respect free will.

Yes, but some people's zealous pursuit of that path knocks boulders over that can hit other people trying to get to the top, or even people not interested in climbing the mountain at all.

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 08:59 PM
True. And some of these people are atheists.

The issue is not one of choosing the correct path to pursue, it is about choosing to pursue the path correctly

tagnostic
December 7th, 2008, 09:07 PM
pessimist: it'll be a volcano and erupt when we get there
optimist: we're almost there
vegan: don't eat it, the ashes might be from animal sacrifices
agnostic: "define top"
fundie: it's our mountain
catholic: you can't get to the top, without showing bottom
hindu: stay at the bottom
zen: what mountain?
buddhist: eat, lie down, become the mountain
new age: ooooohhhh, let's, like, make the mountain out of tofu
atheist: who cares? i'm gonna mine it


:icon_lol:

Tsar Phalanxia
December 7th, 2008, 10:07 PM
agnostic: "define top"
fundie: it's our mountain
catholic: you can't get to the top, without showing bottom
new age: ooooohhhh, let's, like, make the mountain out of tofu
atheist: who cares? i'm gonna mine it

I Lol'd

:D

Loki
December 7th, 2008, 10:18 PM
That would be crushingly disapointing, but given the fact that you don't know which paths are dead ends, do you really have the right to tell people which to choose? You might be wrong and they might be right, or vice versa. In the absence of knowledge of a given path's end, it is always more just to respect free will.

I would never presume I was right. That's why I say things like "each to their own".
Of course I might be wrong. I accept that.

And I never tell people what path to choose. That's a personal thing and it should remain so. Therein lies the problem :D

I don't push my non-believe upon anyone. I wish that was reciprocated.



Get out of that one :D

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 10:24 PM
In that case, I'm sorry I presumed you did!

You have exactly the right attitude, I think.

Nice! An Agreement! :D

Loki
December 7th, 2008, 10:34 PM
No worries my friend :D
But we all make presumptions. Human nature.

I'm interested in everyone's ideas - I'd be a fool not to be.


What are your views? I promise I'll not belittle them - I can't extend that promise to others here :D But I'm interested.

Bismillah ir-Rahman ir-Rahim or In the name of Jesus?

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 10:47 PM
I'm extremely interested in ideas too. That's actually why I came to this forum originally: to explore my ideas and put them up against opinions that I knew would differ and test them. I am a theologian at heart. I want to understand how God can fit with Reason.

That said, I don't think I could outline my beliefs in detail in a satisfactory way. I have not found any faiths or philosophers or theologians that fully fit with what I think, though there is nearly always something I like.

Mostly, I agree with the Classical Muslim philosopher Al Farabi, who believed that both religion and science were paths to enlightenment, paths to God, and that only by fully comprehending both could you achieve perfect understanding.

I think science is important, but I don't think it needs to exclude God. The rest I am still working on.


So I will argue as I feel everywhere I can, and hopefully refine my thoughts and get myself a little closer to The Good.

Loki
December 7th, 2008, 11:06 PM
Well, I can't argue with that.

Al Farabi tried to introduce methodology into the mystic. Who can whine about that?
Yet mysticism still grows in the heart of Judaism? And to a lesser extent Islam and Christianity.

I have friends who are Muslim and friends who are Christian. I fail to see the difference.
Moreover - I fail to see the difference between the any Abrahamic religion - Judaism, Christianity or Islam.

Yet all of the Muslims I know would like to destroy the Prophet Killers.

Not very peaceful :(

Tsar Phalanxia
December 7th, 2008, 11:09 PM
I'm extremely interested in ideas too. That's actually why I came to this forum originally: to explore my ideas and put them up against opinions that I knew would differ and test them. I am a theologian at heart. I want to understand how God can fit with Reason.

That said, I don't think I could outline my beliefs in detail in a satisfactory way. I have not found any faiths or philosophers or theologians that fully fit with what I think, though there is nearly always something I like.

Mostly, I agree with the Classical Muslim philosopher Al Farabi, who believed that both religion and science were paths to enlightenment, paths to God, and that only by fully comprehending both could you achieve perfect understanding.

I think science is important, but I don't think it needs to exclude God. The rest I am still working on.


So I will argue as I feel everywhere I can, and hopefully refine my thoughts and get myself a little closer to The Good.
Do you also accept Google as a goddess? *Wink wink nudge nudge*

If you don't, it's fine, and it'd be awesome to debate with someone who disagrees with us.

Al Farabi
December 7th, 2008, 11:19 PM
I don't think that the differences between the religions is meaningful enough to matter either. It isn't what (or who) you believe in that matters. I arrived at the conclusion that there must be a God based on my conclusion that an Initial Cause is necessary.

That said, I think that any faith at all is good, whether you are christian or muslim or jewish or, yes, even atheist. Anything that inspires in you wonder and a desire to understand the universe is, I think, fundementally good.

What's bad is when people take what could be a great thing, and cling to the surface like a rabid animal.

Plato said that the highest good a man could aspire to is a state of pure contemplation, moving from form to form without needing to use illusions of the literal world as anchors. That's what is at the top of the mountain. Whatever ideas inspire you to climb, that is the idea for you. Just don't be surprised if you find yourself on a different path than you set out on.

rmw
December 7th, 2008, 11:23 PM
Do you also accept Google as a goddess? *Wink wink nudge nudge*

If you don't, it's fine, and it'd be awesome to debate with someone who disagrees with us.

Correction: it'd be awesome to debate with someone who disagrees with us, and can state so in a thoughtful and intelligent manner, instead "u willz burn for eber adn eber u dum fucks." Al gives me hope that there are others out there with the same thought processes and skills.

Loki
December 7th, 2008, 11:42 PM
I don't think that the differences between the religions is meaningful enough to matter either. It isn't what (or who) you believe in that matters. I arrived at the conclusion that there must be a God based on my conclusion that an Initial Cause is necessary.

That said, I think that any faith at all is good, whether you are christian or muslim or jewish or, yes, even atheist. Anything that inspires in you wonder and a desire to understand the universe is, I think, fundementally good.

What's bad is when people take what could be a great thing, and cling to the surface like a rabid animal.

Plato said that the highest good a man could aspire to is a state of pure contemplation, moving from form to form without needing to use illusions of the literal world as anchors. That's what is at the top of the mountain. Whatever ideas inspire you to climb, that is the idea for you. Just don't be surprised if you find yourself on a different path than you set out on.

I'm in awe! Well, sort of :D

I thank you so much for that answer. Had I not read your previous posts I'd have been stunned. I'm not.

You're ok by me. You seem to have your feet on the ground.

The shadow world? Cloud Cuckoo Land? Fascinating stuff.

Perhaps we should make a new thread? Naah - I usually wreak threads by straying off topic .

I'm David by the way. I hope to get to know you.

PS - Occam said something that could be applied to God. Why introduce another variable into the equation?

Tsar Phalanxia
December 7th, 2008, 11:53 PM
Our forum just got smart again ^_^

Loki
December 8th, 2008, 12:00 AM
Our forum just got smart again ^_^

Well, you've got to roll with the flow :D

Al Farabi
December 8th, 2008, 12:06 AM
I'm flattered! I pride myself on having well thought out beliefs.

Oh yeah! Philosophy is absolutely fascinating. There is always something to be learned.

And you're okay by me too. People here seem pretty cool, and quite smart. Hopefully I can add some much needed representation to the opposing side in the more theological threads.

I'm Gordon. Nice to meet you. All of you, actually.

And as for your PS...I'm not sure what you mean.

Is God the extra variable? Because I don't think he is. I would put to you the question: If not God, what set things in motion? A primary mover is needed.

If you meant that you agree with me that God doesn't mess with the universe...then :D

Loki
December 8th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Who lit the blue touch paper? I have no idea :D

Where did matter come from? Define intelligence?

If the Universe is infinite - what's beyond the Universe?
If God created the Universe, who created god? And who created the intelligence that created the god that created god?

Drink beer - it helps :D

Al Farabi
December 8th, 2008, 12:44 AM
who created God....hmm I think I feel a thread topic coming on.

and haha yeah beer helps. :icon_razz:

tagnostic
December 8th, 2008, 12:47 AM
who created God....hmm I think I feel a thread topic coming on.

and haha yeah beer helps. :icon_razz:

now i'm impressed
"hops" on board :D

sudikics
December 8th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Gaah! An intelligent religious person!

Welcome, Al Farabi, I'm certainly enjoying our discussions. It's been a while since I've debated soemone whose responses weren't on par with Miss South Carolina (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww).

Tsar Phalanxia
December 8th, 2008, 05:41 PM
Or Jlar :icon_lol:

sudikics
December 8th, 2008, 05:47 PM
Or Jlar :icon_lol:
*falls out of chair laughing*

BUT THEN THE MAYAN SPIRITS COME DOWN AND JESUS IS A RAPTOR AND DRINKING HERBS WILL ALTER SAPCE AND TIME AND I'M SECRETLY HIGH BUT NO ONE KNOWS THAT BLAH BLAH BLAH I CAN GO ON FOR PAGES LALALA I COULD WRITE A BOOK THICKER THAN WOODWARD'S PAPERWEIGHTS NEWAGE BULLSHIT SCIENCE IS CRAP HAHAHA

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 8th, 2008, 09:37 PM
I am a militant agnostic in a way but hate being militant anything. An Open mind is a free one!

I have a friend who is an intelligent christian who is fun to debate with. I get him alot on why burn atheist for eternity rather then say 2 days.

tagnostic
December 8th, 2008, 09:42 PM
I am a militant agnostic in a way but hate being militant anything. An Open mind is a free one!

I have a friend who is an intelligent christian who is fun to debate with. I get him alot on why burn atheist for eternity rather then say 2 days.

God doesn't like medium rare?

brutelord
December 8th, 2008, 11:26 PM
As an atheist I typically let religion be an none issue. The only time I will discuss it is when it is brought up. The only time I am militant is when they are militant toward me. Though I do think it is our "duty" (maybe...) to come out and say when something is dangerous to society and should be corrected (issues like gblt rights).

tagnostic
December 8th, 2008, 11:38 PM
As an atheist I typically let religion be an none issue. The only time I will discuss it is when it is brought up. The only time I am militant is when they are militant toward me. Though I do think it is our "duty" (maybe...) to come out and say when something is dangerous to society and should be corrected (issues like gblt rights).

could you pls
explain 'gblt' rights?

brutelord
December 8th, 2008, 11:44 PM
gblt rights= Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, Transgender rights.

tagnostic
December 8th, 2008, 11:53 PM
gblt rights= Gay, Bisexual, Lesbian, Transgender rights.

thanks
although i find the issue(s) redundant
human rights are human rights
regardless of which pieces you rub together for fun

Al Farabi
December 8th, 2008, 11:54 PM
human rights are human rights
Agreed

brutelord
December 8th, 2008, 11:56 PM
human rights are human rights

I couldn't agree more. I was simply giving an example.

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 9th, 2008, 01:21 AM
I am a thundercat.... what are my rights?

Al Farabi
December 9th, 2008, 01:24 AM
The right to be awesome.
And the right to be made into a movie coming in 2010!

Tsar Phalanxia
December 9th, 2008, 09:18 AM
Agreed

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 12:59 PM
I am a thundercat....

http://yankeeswelcome.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/thundercats_post01.jpg

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 9th, 2008, 05:10 PM
Check out my hair for proof!

http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn287/drgoofymofo/img1228789178329.jpg

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Ha ha, nice Goofy.

Loki
December 9th, 2008, 05:40 PM
LOL - you look like you lost a screwdriver and found a cactus :D

Warning: Serious Point Alert... :D

What are human rights? Do you really have any rights? Humans decide what you're allowed to do. What you should wear, the language you speak...etc.

Your rights are given to you by those with power. They can remove them as quickly as they give them.
We rely upon these people to protect us from the nasty Muslim at the door. Or the clinic burning Christian, the money grubbing Scientologist, the dope smoking liberal...

Do we really have any rights? Other than those which we've been granted by the Powers That Be?

Al Farabi
December 9th, 2008, 05:57 PM
I think that we have to assign rights that we consider held by all people in order to be able to interact. It's just necessary to social living. Arguably, all social animals do the same thing - for example, no wolf can just kill and eat another member of its pack without facing harsh punishment by the others. This is a rudimentary rights system.

So what I think is: No, we have no intrinsic rights, but human rights must exist in order for us to live with each other.

Loki
December 9th, 2008, 06:15 PM
But are those rights or privileges?
I know what you're saying (I'm being argumentative again :D) -but how can you assign a right?

You speak of wolves - they have no rights. Top dog eats first - peons eat when Captain Carnassial has had his fill - Or they get their throat ripped out.

Simple justice - the law of the wild. It's not a right though - it's "I'm bigger and stronger than you - do what I say or die."

Rights are a human construct that are thrown around in order to keep the masses happy.

Does an unborn child have any rights? Does a 6 month old foetus have rights. Yes? So why not a sperm?
And if that's the case then I'm in deep shit :D

Al Farabi
December 9th, 2008, 06:34 PM
But are those rights or privileges?
I know what you're saying (I'm being argumentative again :D) -but how can you assign a right?

Aren't rights just privelages that are assumed to be had? The only technical difference between a right and a privelige is the idea that they can't be taken away...but rights can be taken away.

You speak of wolves - they have no rights. Top dog eats first - peons eat when Captain Carnassial has had his fill - Or they get their throat ripped out.

Simple justice - the law of the wild. It's not a right though - it's "I'm bigger and stronger than you - do what I say or die."

Not true. If a bigger and stronger animal was attacking a member of a wolf pack, would the others not help it? If the leader of the wolf pack started killing his inferiors indescriminantly, he would be fought and ejected or killed.

It appears that in wolf society, you have the right to be protected from harm if possible.

Rights are a human construct that are thrown around in order to keep the masses happy.

Exactly. They intrinsically do not exist, but are necessary constructions for society.

Does an unborn child have any rights?
Nope. As societal constructions, rights do not exist in anyone or thing not present in society.

Does a 6 month old foetus have rights. Yes?
Nuh-uh.

So why not a sperm?
See above.

And if that's the case then I'm in deep shit :D

:icon_rolleyes:
*groan

Lilith
December 9th, 2008, 06:40 PM
There are no natural rights, just society ones.
Nature has no rights, it has rules. Rules made for surviving and out of experience. May it be respecting the stronger or sticking together in danger.
Human rights are self-given priviledges, usually only possible with a certain grade of luxury.

Just my thoughts.

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Nature has no rights, it has rules.

I don't even think it has those.

Lilith
December 9th, 2008, 06:45 PM
Not true. If a bigger and stronger animal was attacking a member of a wolf pack, would the others not help it? If the leader of the wolf pack started killing his inferiors indescriminantly, he would be fought and ejected or killed.

It appears that in wolf society, you have the right to be protected from harm if possible.


Not quite true, I fear. There is always an omega wolf who the others treat like dirt. He eats last, starves and suffers badly. None of the others care. When he finally dies another one has to take over the place.
Wolves are cruel to each other :(

A better example would have been elephants, they care a lot about each other and even morn together for every death.

Apes also morn. We should rather compare us with them, all in all we're nothing but primates.

Lilith
December 9th, 2008, 06:52 PM
I don't even think it has those.

Well, maybe no rules, but you could say, nature makes some good advices:
- be careful of hunters if you taste yummi!
- drink and eat when there is the chance to
- try to mate before someone else is getting to her
- teamwork makes you stronger
- don't piss off the boss unless you can win a fight
;)

Reminds me, Chimpanzees do cheat: the young ones have sex with the females when they know the leader isn't watching! Talking about fairness :D

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 06:53 PM
Well, maybe no rules, but you could say, nature makes some good advices:
- be careful of hunters if you taste yummi!
- drink and eat when there is the chance to
- try to mate before someone else is getting to her
- teamwork makes you stronger
- don't piss off the boss unless you can win a fight



Sounds like some guidelines to me. ;)

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 9th, 2008, 06:57 PM
The universe is made of laws...~Einstien

law of gravity, laws of thermodynamics, and so forth!

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 06:59 PM
The universe is made of laws...~Einstien



Universe.
Not Nature.



Gotcha bitch! :D

Lilith
December 9th, 2008, 07:00 PM
The universe is made of laws...~Einstien

law of gravity, laws of thermodynamics, and so forth!

But we were the ones who made them laws, weren't we?




"We made the rules and we can break them.
We made the laws and we can change them" (Helloween) :icon_cool:

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 9th, 2008, 07:04 PM
What makes you think that laws of the universe are different then the laws of nature? Nature is a universe, it is the universe in which trees live it is their universe.

Edit: Holy crap Halloween!!! The laws we found from understanding.

Loki
December 9th, 2008, 07:06 PM
:icon_rolleyes:
*groan

Hey, I managed more than three words without a stupid comment - I think that's worthy of some respect :D

You said that rights can be taken away... Then they're not rights - they're nothing more than happy pills.
A bit like religion n'est pas :D
(I'm playing Devil's Advocate btw)

Lilith is right imo (don't get used to it :D) - there are no rules in nature. At least I don't know of any...apart from survival of the fittest.

And that's why we (the royal we - ie humanity) deign to attribute rights - so the weaker members of society are not eaten by top dog.

Or is it because top dog is more intelligent in human society - Mutley has discovered psychology :D

Tsar Phalanxia
December 9th, 2008, 07:10 PM
Past 4,000 Loki?

rzm61
December 9th, 2008, 07:26 PM
What makes you think that laws of the universe are different then the laws of nature? Nature is a universe, it is the universe in which trees live it is their universe.

YOU'RE A UNIVERSE! :(

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 9th, 2008, 07:32 PM
That is correct, I am my own universe because I lack a lady friend and at this current time am away from family and friends... your point?

Lilith
December 9th, 2008, 07:57 PM
Edit: Holy crap Halloween!!! The laws we found from understanding.

Not Halloween: Helloween! A German Metal Band ;P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkNuTXK97g

Loki
December 9th, 2008, 08:11 PM
Not Halloween: Helloween! A German Metal Band ;P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkNuTXK97g


Lock up yer daughters - the eagle has landed :D
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u6OLEPaIMhA

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 10th, 2008, 01:30 AM
Not Halloween: Helloween! A German Metal Band ;P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utkNuTXK97g

I know, I listened to them back in the day... my spelling just sucks balls

sudikics
December 10th, 2008, 01:40 AM
Lock up yer daughters - the eagle has landed :D
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u6OLEPaIMhA
Congrats, Loki: That's this forum's 106000th post.

Loki
December 10th, 2008, 02:03 AM
Congrats, Loki: That's this forum's 106000th post.

Seriously?

Wow - I just wet my boxers with joy!
:D

sam the moderately wize
December 10th, 2008, 11:04 AM
buddhist: eat, lie down, become the mountain
hehehehehehe



*In an environment where people try to save me from atheism on a weekly basis*

I think I have a clear right to retaliate with the most powerful arguments avaliable to me, and if that means mercilessly crushing the faith of my assailants, so be it. They asked for it by starting the debate in the first place.

Loki
December 10th, 2008, 01:37 PM
*In an environment where people try to save me from atheism on a weekly basis*

I think I have a clear right to retaliate with the most powerful arguments avaliable to me, and if that means mercilessly crushing the faith of my assailants, so be it. They asked for it by starting the debate in the first place.

Yeah - I think I'd be a bit less tolerant if I was subjected to constant religious indoctrination.
We're pretty lucky in Old England - most folks are about as religious as my toe.
You get some but they're generally harmless....
Well, sort of harmless. The IRA weren't. Or the Islamic Fundamentalists:icon_cry:

tagnostic
December 10th, 2008, 03:48 PM
militant agnostic: i don't know, neither do you, now i'm going to hit you until you admit it. :D

Loki
December 10th, 2008, 04:03 PM
But would YOU rip up a bible?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sZdmldlV-F0&feature=related

The Truth Group.


Yes I would rip up a bible. They usually have pretty decent, thin paper. When you run out of Rizzlas Leviticus rushes to the rescue.

Al Farabi
December 10th, 2008, 11:13 PM
*In an environment where people try to save me from atheism on a weekly basis*

I think I have a clear right to retaliate with the most powerful arguments avaliable to me, and if that means mercilessly crushing the faith of my assailants, so be it. They asked for it by starting the debate in the first place.

I never said debating people with all you have was bad. It doesn't sound like you are setting out to convert them specifically.

And incidentally, the bible is a book. Trying to confine God to a book is silly. I wouldn't rip up a bible, but for the same reason that I wouldn't rip up a copy of The Aeneid. I respect literature. Ripping up a bible is at best a statement against Christianity (minus lutherans, who, if they know their theology, wouldn't care) and not really a statement against God at all.

Lilith
December 11th, 2008, 02:49 PM
But would YOU rip up a bible?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sZdmldlV-F0&feature=related

The Truth Group.


Yes I would rip up a bible. They usually have pretty decent, thin paper. When you run out of Rizzlas Leviticus rushes to the rescue.

Bible is for me like any other book and I have a personal aversion for destroying books, no matter how dumb. I can't even bend their paper.
But if I had to rip up a book, I wouldn't mind if it was a bible or not.

Tsar Phalanxia
December 11th, 2008, 03:46 PM
I go mental if I find a book with a broken spine.

sudikics
December 11th, 2008, 06:05 PM
If I see a valuable book, I strive to keep it in pristine condition. If it's a generic copy, I'd be OK with burning it. :icon_twisted:

Loki
December 12th, 2008, 09:50 PM
I go mental if I find a book with a broken spine.

NEVER! EVER! ...

...Lend me a book then!

You'd be selecting the pickaxe and donning the rubber gloves before you could scream :D

- "No! Not the fucking corners too? Oh my god, what is that he used as a bookmark?
...A fucking toenail!
And I hope that's Marmite!"

brutelord
December 12th, 2008, 11:29 PM
I never said debating people with all you have was bad. It doesn't sound like you are setting out to convert them specifically.



Let me ask is it wrong for an atheist to try and "deconvert" someone?

Al Farabi
December 13th, 2008, 08:59 PM
yes

tagnostic
December 13th, 2008, 09:20 PM
discussion/debate is more than welcome
however any form of conversion/deconversion
is proselytizing which to my mind is a form of
mental enslavement, people have the right to
their own minds, pushing your beliefs on them
is a violation of the worst sort.. if your beliefs
are valid they will speak for themselves and if
someone wants another opinion/viewpoint they
will ask for it, once that door is opened by all
means express yourself, no matter how strong
you are in your beliefs a little healthy debate is
good in order to solidify ones own or just as
importantly to question them............

jmho

brutelord
December 13th, 2008, 10:17 PM
yes
Then let me ask, is it wrong for a christian or any other religious group to try and convert an atheist?

Sister Faith
December 13th, 2008, 10:26 PM
Yes.

Al Farabi
December 13th, 2008, 10:28 PM
yes.

It is wrong for anyone to try and convert anyone. Militaristic assault on someone's beliefs whatever they may be is wrong, and not in the spirit of debate and idea exploration. In a conversion, nobody grows.

sudikics
December 13th, 2008, 11:17 PM
yes.

It is wrong for anyone to try and convert anyone. Militaristic assault on someone's beliefs whatever they may be is wrong, and not in the spirit of debate and idea exploration. In a conversion, nobody grows.
Agreed. "Conversion" should only take place because of a person's own accord and what they've deduced with discussions with other who may hold differing beliefs.

Tsar Phalanxia
December 14th, 2008, 11:39 AM
There's a difference between passive conversion, i.e. sharing information and discussion, and aggresive conversion i.e. shouting, going to hell-ness

rmw
December 14th, 2008, 03:19 PM
There's a difference between passive conversion, i.e. sharing information and discussion, and aggresive conversion i.e. shouting, going to hell-ness

Or, conversely, your-beliefs-are-stupid-ness.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 02:06 AM
As agnostic's and atheist's though, we aren't trying to CONVERT anyone to our side, we are convincing them to try and give up THEIRS. If I try to deconvert a christian, it's not so they will become an atheist, it's so they will begin to think for themselves.

To clarify I think I'll make the revolutionary point that organized religion is an absence of free thought. It is thinking as you are told to.

Is telling someone "Don't do that, think for yourself instead" the same, really, as saying "don't do that, do THIS"

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 16th, 2008, 02:09 AM
They are thinking for them selfs but there choice may seem close minded to us but it is their choice to make. Then only thing we can do is try to open there mind if it leads them away from religion great if not at least they will be open to other options. In the long run let people be who they are and accept them for that choice.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 02:18 AM
You say that it was their choice to make, but in the majority of situations I think that is simply not the case. If a child is raised by their parents being told that their religion IS TRUTH, then they will grow up believing that it IS TRUTH. They are not taught other opinions, they aren't told "this is what we believe" they are told THIS IS WHAT IS.

If a person is raised in such a sheltered way, then they are being raised without choice. Before they can make the choice, they must give up what has been so deepy ingrained into them through years and years of conditioining, and in doing that they are effectively giving up their religion.

I think we need to fight fire with fire.

but then of course, i differ from most here in thinking that we need to fight in the first place. I think it's true that former christians are often make for the most belligerant atheists and agnostics.

An idea that just occurred to me: do you think that might be because we seek confirmation in our new lack of belief? many people flock to religion because of the appeal of being a part of a greater whole, and it's possible religiously minded people yearn for that after losing their faith.

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 16th, 2008, 02:28 AM
The bird who cracks late from his shell is still subjected to the same world. Yes, they were raised in that way and they tend to lean toward it. Some fall into because it seems the right thing for them. Others need it to get thru the day. If you educate the person they will fall out of religion in most cases but it is better they do it on their own terms. If someone comes to me wanting to know about my beliefs I will tell them but I will not play their game of forcing mine onto them. If I force my beliefs onto others then I am no better then them, I know I am probally not right on how the world works but others need to know. Let them believe there fair tales as long as it does not affect others.

Religion and politics follow a personal belief system. It is something a person must find on there own, some make the journey others choose to have it made for them. Either way it is non of mine or anyone elses what people believe.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 02:39 AM
Well I think I see now where specifically we differ.

I think that the majority of those in organized religions were robbed of their choice. Their parents and priests obscured their vision when they were young, and now they see everything through the lens that their PARENTS put on them.

All I think we should try to do is correct their vision (I always feel ridiculous when using metaphors...).

When you are young you accept the words of your parents unquestioningly, and so their words become law, absolute fact. If they are telling you that jesus is the son of god and he loves you and watches over you, then that becomes truth. That unproven, ridiculous, fantastic idea has become fact for you and in most cases always will be.

Religion and politics ARE something a person should find out on their own, but no person will go to an organized religion unless someone, purposefully or not, is pushing it on them. Jesus is not a conclusion you can just COME to, all dogmas attached.

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 16th, 2008, 02:45 AM
Indeed but in the world of broken families we are in now not many people listen to there familys. I think people should be raised like I was... no knowledge of religion.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 02:53 AM
I don't understand the connection to 'broken' families. Teenagers have their rebellious stages but at that point it is usually too late.

And yes, children SHOULD be raised knowing nothing of religion. When the unavoidable questions come up (what made me?) they can very easily be answered without turning fiction into fact. (well, some people think we were made but noone knows for sure)

having never been given this oppertunity, those raised in religion are crippled. What is wrong with trying to help them?

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 16th, 2008, 03:04 AM
Broken family is lead because the pure hatered they have for there famliy and all they stand for... maybe I was just rasied in a weird city I call the ass hole of the USA. When one is that hating of ones family you tend to find your own way and have the time it is God.

Comparing a religious person to a cripple? Really?... I guess all I am trying to say is you can open someones mind to knew things with out trying to change there beliefs, let them do that themselves.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 03:08 AM
How exactly do you encourage them to open their mind without challenging their beliefs? I'm not asking that sarcastically, I am genuinely interested. Can you give me an example of something I could say to a conservative Christian that opens their mind without challenging their beliefs.

Also: If someone is prevented from exercising free thought as a child, then yes I would consider them crippled.

EDIT: and if it makes me sound less pompous, that would extend to me as an ex-catholic.

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 16th, 2008, 03:22 AM
Start of with simple mind fucks and things that make them think. Bring them out and open there charactor up. When a person is more open to doing things, they start to become more open in the way they think.

shinsukato
December 16th, 2008, 03:26 AM
I'm not a particularly smart or creative person. Could you possibly give a more specific example I could use? If I could approach people in a less threatening way it would probably be beneficial.

Perna de Pau
December 16th, 2008, 03:03 PM
I certainly agree with you, Shinsukato, that religious people are crippled, or, should I say, that they believe they are crippled and they think they could not walk through life without the crutches of religion (I am aware of the risk of being ridiculous with my metaphor).

I also think that we should try to show them that they do not need those crutches and in this I disagree with Dr Goofy. It is not a matter of convincing them to change a set of beliefs for another (which would amount to change a pair of crutches to another) it is a matter of convincing them that they do not need any set of beliefs (no crutches at all).

But this is a very long way :(

Tsar Phalanxia
December 16th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Dude, you should post so much more often.

Perna de Pau
December 16th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Dude, you should post so much more often.

Thanks Phal, but I don't have so much more time.

I just come here every now and then and post only when I think I have something to say (I can't understand those who have nothing to say and insist in proving it, verbally or in writing :) )

Dr Goofy Mofo
December 17th, 2008, 02:04 AM
I seem to remember this argument at an earlier date.

I feel you can educate someone about anything and they will start using education as a spring bored to other things.