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Perna de Pau
January 16th, 2009, 04:41 PM
In most religions people pray to their gods. One of the reasons they do so is to ask for something and in most religions it is said that god answers them.

Now imagine two horrible criminals N and M. They are the worst you can imagine and each one is as bad as the other. They spent their lives doing the worst possible evil.

N had a very religious mother who prayed for him every day. Every single day she would pray for hours asking god to forgive her son. M's mother never prayed.

N and M die and "logically" god would send them both to hell, which they more than deserve according to whatever holy scriptures. After all god is supposed to be just.

Therefore N's mother wasted her entire life in useless prayers.

Can the theists explain why they keep praying? Do they hope that god is not just and could send M to heaven because of his motherís prayers and despite his being as evil as N?

Is anyone able to explain this (apparent?) contradiction?

rzm61
January 16th, 2009, 05:16 PM
It's all psychological?

They pray so their problems and concerns are no longer in their hands, it's not at the feet of god. :icon_rolleyes:

Probably just makes them feel better about themselves. Personally I feel that religion, higher powers and praying is just an excuse so you don't have to take responsibility for your life and problems.

Kabel
January 16th, 2009, 10:17 PM
Maybe they hope God would re-think his verdict on the person they pray for?

Dr Goofy Mofo
January 16th, 2009, 10:41 PM
I think of it more of a way to deal with guilt, Passing the buck, and being able to to ask for things others can't give you in hopes you get it.

sudikics
January 17th, 2009, 12:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f15PNrk94kg

rmw
January 17th, 2009, 01:46 AM
Therefore N's mother wasted her entire life in useless prayers.

God does so answer prayers. Sometimes the answer is "no." ;)

sailor
January 18th, 2009, 06:41 PM
i generally follow something along the lines of this two word sentence:

Whatever works.

Tsar Phalanxia
January 19th, 2009, 09:29 AM
If it goes well, then God is praised, and happiness ensues. If it doesn't, it's part of "God's plan", or they've sinned, or they're now dead, so it doesn't matter anymore.

Perna de Pau
January 19th, 2009, 09:41 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f15PNrk94kg

Great video, thanks.

i generally follow something along the lines of this two word sentence:

Whatever works.

Yes, I had already noticed that you reacted same as a superstitious pigeon.:icon_lol:

So far nobody disagreed that there is a contradiction between god's justice and the hope that prayers be answered.

rmw
January 20th, 2009, 01:47 AM
I think prayer is a way for some people to handle situations that they have no control over. Prayer may give them comfort and/or the illusion of control.

tagnostic
January 20th, 2009, 08:04 AM
prayer just gives you a scapegoat,
someone/thing
you can
thank or blame

Dementis
January 21st, 2009, 01:45 PM
Prayer is used to think you are doing something to help someone that you yourself could not do. Unfortunatly, as previously stated, it is meerly an illusion of control.:\

rzm61
January 21st, 2009, 01:45 PM
to shut them up for about 1-5 minutes.

Unless they are praying out loud. :(

Dementis
January 21st, 2009, 01:49 PM
to shut them up for about 1-5 minutes.

Unless they are praying out loud. :(
:icon_lol: There is NOTHING worse than people praying for all to hear... ugh. Not even Hitler would commence in that douchebaggery. Unless of course you are in church, then it is acceptable only on the standard that you accept your major flaw in logic of your beliefs.

Tsar Phalanxia
January 21st, 2009, 01:54 PM
I want to hear a theist going "Daear God: please make all the atheists die" or something similar, and then for me to let out a *AHEM*

rzm61
January 21st, 2009, 01:55 PM
:icon_lol: There is NOTHING worse than people praying for all to hear... ugh. Not even Hitler would commence in that douchebaggery. Unless of course you are in church, then it is acceptable only on the standard that you accept your major flaw in logic of your beliefs.

Yeah, I was kinda pissed yesterday with all the religious bullshit that was thrown into the inauguration.

Tsar Phalanxia
January 21st, 2009, 01:58 PM
Although you have to admit that you jizzed in you pants when he said Christians, Muslims, Hindus and NON-BELIEVERS :D

rzm61
January 21st, 2009, 02:06 PM
OH FUCK YEAH!

That made me so happy that he acknowledged the non-believers. Truly a man worthy of respect.


Also, here you go. This put a smile on my face as well:
http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/01/19/president-obama-living-proof-that-family-values-without-religion-build-character/

Dementis
January 21st, 2009, 02:43 PM
I would complain, but America is a predominatly Christian country (though it was not started like that) and there are many such examples of religeon in the government. It certainly made me happy when he mentioned non-believers though. Plus, that article did, indeed, bring a smile to my face :D .

tagnostic
January 21st, 2009, 04:26 PM
i like it when they pray
really really loud,
it makes it easier
to pass out the
straitjackets

djura
January 23rd, 2009, 10:31 AM
I think that prayer was originally invented to help retarded kids that talk to them selves feel like they belong. Nobble effort though, but the kids still end up doing manual labor below minimal wage (praying hard).

Dementis
January 28th, 2009, 03:00 PM
I think that prayer was originally invented to help retarded kids that talk to them selves feel like they belong. Nobble effort though, but the kids still end up doing manual labor below minimal wage (praying hard).

The truth hurts. :icon_cry:

Rothis
February 7th, 2009, 02:11 AM
Why do you care about the religious importance of the ritual of some idiotic macro-cult? Or do you only ask to ridicule?

Now, is your post about God being just and prayer is therefore ineffectual, or is it about the importance of prayer? (I think it's the first one, so I'll answer that). I know this may sound preachy, but you asked for an answer, which I'll provide to the best of my ability.

In the christian (Catholicism excluded, always) religion, there is this thing called "grace." Catholics don't know about it, most other religions don't understand/want it, and most people don't think about it, but it's there. The bible (was that a faux pa? should I write it "buy bull"?) says it is by the grace of God we are saved. We don't (neither do N or M) deserve heaven. Me, you, and everyone else on the planet don't deserve heaven by the bible's standards, so we're all screwed.

Sure, we haven't murdered or raped or anything like that, but that's just imposing the changing morals of society onto religion. Back when Ba'al was the god to please, people sacrificed living babies in fire, so a constant moral standard is needed here to determine heavenly eligibility. Using the bible's standards, we'll all go straight to hell. That is, unless N and M accept God's grace and believe Jesus died etc. before they die.


The mother prayed for God to forgive her sons, not that they would be saved. God may have, God may have not depending on who's asking forgiveness. If N and M don't ask for forgiveness themselves, get saved, etc, then no, they'll still go to hell. It would be better (not a law, mind you, she can ask God anything she wants) if she prayed that they get saved, not that they're forgiven.

Prayer, in itself, is a way to communicate with God. Is it so wrong to ask God for help, or for material things? Prayer isn't some kind of magic spell that instantly comes true the moment you utter it, depleting all your mana points. It's talking with God. If it isn't according to God's will for your life (don't get me started on that predestination/free-will bull; this isn't the thread for it) he'll say no. If it is, he'll say yes.


But hey, it's just another psychological oppression ritual for retards and the scientifically "unenlightened" (lol irony) masses of sheep. right?

tagnostic
February 7th, 2009, 09:27 AM
sounds alot like your trying to justify
behaviour that society as a whole
would not approve of,
and not just in this
thread,,,,,

djura
February 7th, 2009, 11:08 AM
If it isn't according to God's will for your life (don't get me started on that predestination/free-will bull; this isn't the thread for it) he'll say no. If it is, he'll say yes.


What makes you think it's a HE, maybe it's a SHE, and even by religious standards god is everlasting, all-around, ever-present, see-everything is-everything forever and ever kinda being, that actually makes it nether.
How do you expect to your prayers to be heard, when you got gods sex wrong?

winwun
February 7th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Maybe God barks, and someday he is going to bite us in the butt for spelling his name backwards . . .

So if someone raped and killed Grace, then there would be no more Grace . . .

Perna de Pau
February 9th, 2009, 11:00 AM
Why do you care about the religious importance of the ritual of some idiotic macro-cult? Or do you only ask to ridicule?


I do not care about the religious importance of the ritual of some idiotic macro-cult or did I only ask to ridicule. Prayer is a widespread attitude practised by billions of human beings and I am interested in the process that made it so widespread despite the fact that it flies against logic.


Now, is your post about God being just and prayer is therefore ineffectual, or is it about the importance of prayer? (I think it's the first one, so I'll answer that).


My post was about none of that. It was about the fact that prayer seems to contradict the logic of those who pray to a god who is both just and mercyful (this includes all sorts of christians - yes, even catholics - but also jews, muslims and many other).

Rothis
February 16th, 2009, 06:46 AM
>>tag
Is that in response to my post? If it is, I think society as a whole would approve, since the majority of society (like it or not) is religious in some way, and does approve of people praying.

>>djura
straw-man, but I'll answer it anyway. Because God revealed HIMself as a MALE in the bible and the Qu'ran (the books for most people that pray, but not all). Some other people may believe that God is a she.
Also, the question at the end of your post begs the question contradictory to it.

>>Perna
The process that made so widespread was the spread of religion(which, coincidentally, also flies against logic). Religion was made so widespread because some people wanted to believe in something more than this world, and some were forced in one way or another.

The god of the Catholics is not merciful. You pay for your sins, or go to hell. That's how they work.

The rest of the pray-ers ask their god for mercy, that he may give the subject that instead of justice.

Tsar Phalanxia
February 16th, 2009, 02:15 PM
If I don't deserve heaven, even though I've acted by the basic commandants of the J-Man, due to the fact that I don't think that YHWH exists, then YHWH is a dick, and not worthy of my worship.

djura
February 17th, 2009, 09:53 AM
For we all believe in something, some chose what to believe, and what to question. I was merely being sarcastic, and a question I asked was rather a rhetorical one.
Nevertheless, I still believe that praying is as much help as trying to salve a complex mathematical problem by chewing bubblegum.
He/she/it/whatever doesn't answer prayers ever. I know this, and you know this, and pretty much anybody in the whole world knows this. Whether or not most have the courage to admit it, is another question altogether.

tagnostic
February 17th, 2009, 12:33 PM
Prayer is the oral manifestation of attempting to put both your fate and responsibility on an outside source, thereby giving said source both all blame & responsibility.