Log in

View Full Version : Free Will


sam the moderately wize
February 27th, 2009, 08:07 PM
I've recently decided that I have to give up my belief in free will.

Really the only evidence that I have free will is my feeling that I could have made the opposite decision had I chosen to; however, it was recently pointed out to me that this feeling is a quale and therefore does not necessarily tell me what is actually going on.

An overwhelming majority of the scientific evidence avaliable suggests that decisions are made subconsciously before we have the experience of making them, and in light of these two facts I have to become a determinist.

Any rebuttals from the free will side?

rzm61
February 27th, 2009, 08:10 PM
It all comes down to a coin toss.

sam the moderately wize
February 27th, 2009, 08:16 PM
Really? Why?

rzm61
February 27th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Ever see that episode of futurama? The one with parallel universes....that were in boxes.

sam the moderately wize
February 27th, 2009, 08:18 PM
With the box with the universe in?

rzm61
February 27th, 2009, 08:19 PM
yeah, which then turned into other boxes with parallel universes

Tsar Phalanxia
February 27th, 2009, 08:20 PM
Ever see that episode of futurama? The one with parallel universes....that were in boxes.
I <3 it.

I believe that we do, and even if we don't we have the illusion of free will, which is all that matters. I dislike getting too deep into philosophy sober, as I leave that for when I get drunk.

sam the moderately wize
February 27th, 2009, 08:28 PM
It was an awesome episode, but why does it impact on free will?

Dr Goofy Mofo
February 27th, 2009, 08:29 PM
It all comes down to a coin toss.

ok 2 face

Ever see that episode of futurama? The one with parallel universes....that were in boxes.

I loved that episode.

rzm61
February 27th, 2009, 08:29 PM
It was an awesome episode, but why does it impact on free will?

Go watch the episode.

Will.
February 27th, 2009, 09:41 PM
I have the urge to take advantage of this, but I Will. Turn the other cheek.
:icon_lol:

sudikics
February 28th, 2009, 12:45 AM
As soon as I get into college (it's probably gonna be Columbia U at this point), I'm going to start begging to set up a version of the wave-particle split experiment. If I do things right, I should be able to prove whether or not you have free will.

Will.
February 28th, 2009, 01:05 AM
As soon as I get into college (it's probably gonna be Columbia U at this point), I'm going to start begging to set up a version of the wave-particle split experiment. If I do things right, I should be able to prove whether or not you have free will.


Who says they can give me away for free? I cost money you know. (I know just kidding, but that is interesting in its self.)

winwun
March 2nd, 2009, 01:35 AM
I'm not sure about this "free Will" movement -- I'd say it depends on what he was locked up for.

Seriously, the concept of "*" does not mandate that action is pre-determined, the presumption, as I see it, is that one always has options, and how or whether the exercising of particular options is preferable is NOT the point.

I see more humor in the concept, in that there are those who place validity on a concept that is totally (IMO) immaterial.

I mean, is this knowledge going to make my dog bark less at 2am, or will it make my chain saw start easier, my groceries cheaper, my wife prettier, or in any manner enhance my lifestyle or be better for our society as a whole ?etc etc. ? ? ?

I had a friend once who would order a hamburger and specify the order in which it was to be assembled, and would return it if it was not just so.

Ordering a hamburger with him a couple of times was enough to make me question the benefits of his friendship, and like I said earlier, "I HAD a friend . . ."

So having "*" gave me the option of either putting up with his vain grandstanding, or telling him to take his BS on down the road -- by exercising free will, I chose #2.

tagnostic
March 2nd, 2009, 02:27 AM
excellent,

define free will,
all actions, 'free will', are constrained by
physical ability
moral (conscience) restraints
and
societal more's

what actually comprises's free will?
the ability?
the action?
or
the Illusion of Choice?

rmw
March 2nd, 2009, 02:30 AM
What about the illusion of control? Could we not choose to do option 1 instead of option 2 because option 1 affords greater control (or a better illusion) in the situation?

tagnostic
March 2nd, 2009, 02:32 AM
when I open a can of food for Fingus
and put it in the dish
next to her dry
she has the Illusion
of free will choosing the
canned over the dry, but she
didn't decide which can I opened

where does the free will come in
at what point do you truly choose?

djura
March 2nd, 2009, 09:25 AM
when I open a can of food for Fingus
and put it in the dish
next to her dry
she has the Illusion
of free will choosing the
canned over the dry, but she
didn't decide which can I opened

where does the free will come in
at what point do you truly choose?
The free will part comes when she vomits all over you shoes os pisses in your slipper - for not providing the right brand cat food. :D

tagnostic
March 2nd, 2009, 09:29 AM
what,
do you have a web cam in here?
she does yakk on my stuff,
no matter how many
times I tell her
"don't eat the beak, the feet or the feather's"
she still does and yakks them on the floor.

the question is
'where is the birds free will'?

djura
March 2nd, 2009, 10:02 AM
rofl,
all the cats are the same, lol

Bird has free will to take a dump wherever. Most birds take advantage of this, to the fullest.

tagnostic
March 2nd, 2009, 10:07 AM
the bird can dump
but if he's plump
the cat will jump
dead on his rump


Fingus wants to know
what avian life is indigenous
to Serbia?

winwun
March 2nd, 2009, 01:59 PM
My take on "*" is that you have only the choice of available options, not the choice of what options can be made available.

If such were the case, I would have chosen a reality with such options as would be acceptable under forseeable circumstances, such as a 24/7 erection to accomodate a rag-head's supply of virgins (option 2) and NOT a society with the power to relieve me of a few years of my existence for exercising option 3, (shutting up an asshole).

Sorta like a fork in the road, you didn't build the road, or consult on the route, you just drive on it, and your options are either A or B at the fork.

This is not to say that options of which road to take initially were not available, however.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 2nd, 2009, 02:03 PM
rag-head's.

:icon_evil:

sam the moderately wize
March 4th, 2009, 11:55 AM
My problem with free will is that because it is a quale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia)and so does not necessarily correspond to anything in the real world.

Scientific experiments have shown that most 'descisions' you make are made by the unconscious before we have the experience of making them. This suggests that we could not have made the opposite decision, as the subconscious makes in on avaliable information, genetic tendancies ect, and there is no 'choice' involved. Even if we 'choose' to do something that our first instincts tell us not to do, this only means that parts of our subconscious are overrulling eachother, and we had to make the decision anyway.

winwun
March 4th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Sam, can you say, "predestination" ?

Now, pardon me while I sit on my butt and become rich, because that is what my subconscious wants . . .

Perna de Pau
March 4th, 2009, 05:32 PM
My problem with free will is that because it is a quale (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia)and so does not necessarily correspond to anything in the real world.

Scientific experiments have shown that most 'descisions' you make are made by the unconscious before we have the experience of making them. This suggests that we could not have made the opposite decision, as the subconscious makes in on avaliable information, genetic tendancies ect, and there is no 'choice' involved. Even if we 'choose' to do something that our first instincts tell us not to do, this only means that parts of our subconscious are overrulling eachother, and we had to make the decision anyway.

The fact that decisions may be made by the unconscious before we experience making them does not preclude free will. Those decisions are made taking into account who we are (genetic, etc), what we know (experience) and also the moment when we make them.

We already have a good idea of which chemical reactions are responsible for which emotions and one day we may figure out what chemical "set up" will likely lead to some decisions but I very much doubt that we will be able to "analyse" someone's brain and be 100% sure of what his/her decision will be.

Without such certitude there is free will (or not?)