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Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 02:30 AM
Well, hi there.

I'm not sure how to present myself, but, oh well. Here I go.

I'm Yiuel. I like to think a lot. Perhaps a little too much for my own good, but that's beside the point. When I found this forum, I thought it would be a fun stay, so... I decided to join and have fun with you all.

I am technically a linguist, with a specialization in Japanese language and foreign language acquisition. I have not completed any graduate studies yet, had to take a break of all that studying thingy, but I hope to eventually complete a higher degree in Japanese language. I also speak English, French (me being from Frogland, but not the original one) and Esperanto, for the records. And a little Spanish.

Other than that, well, I suppose I should say that I hope it will be fun here. But I think there is no need to hope it, as it will certainly be so.

(As for religion, let me just say that I am quite weird, mixing various thoughts and teachings together.)

rzm61
March 3rd, 2009, 02:33 AM
Welcome Yiuel to the CoG.

Dr Goofy Mofo
March 3rd, 2009, 02:43 AM
Welcome to the CoG I hope you enjoy the stay and beware of Trolls.

zexx0r
March 3rd, 2009, 03:01 AM
Welcome to the Church of Google! :D
You will have a good time here, I guarantee! :)

tagnostic
March 3rd, 2009, 08:00 AM
Most Welcome,
to the CoG

Tsar Phalanxia
March 3rd, 2009, 09:45 AM
Well, hi there.

Nice. I've been thinking that we should yhave had a French guy now, and here you are. I'm a Rosbif by the way :D


I'm Yiuel. I like to think a lot. Perhaps a little too much for my own good, but that's beside the point. When I found this forum, I thought it would be a fun stay, so... I decided to join and have fun with you all.

I think most of us do. We vary between serious debate, and mucking around.


I am technically a linguist, with a specialization in Japanese language and foreign language acquisition. I have not completed any graduate studies yet, had to take a break of all that studying thingy, but I hope to eventually complete a higher degree in Japanese language. I also speak English, French (me being from Frogland, but not the original one) and Esperanto, for the records. And a little Spanish.


Oh awesome. I'm thinking of doing Japanese at university, or doing the JET Programme, AND maybe Esperanto as well, depending on how easy it is. How easy is it? I just speak German at the moment.


(As for religion, let me just say that I am quite weird, mixing various thoughts and teachings together.)
Care to add Googlism to those teachings? ;)

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 01:17 PM
Nice. I've been thinking that we should yhave had a French guy now, and here you are. I'm a Rosbif by the way :D

I'm Quebecker, so Canadian. So North American-style French.

I think most of us do. We vary between serious debate, and mucking around.

Good, good.

Oh awesome. I'm thinking of doing Japanese at university, or doing the JET Programme, AND maybe Esperanto as well, depending on how easy it is. How easy is it? I just speak German at the moment.

About Japanese : Do some Japanese first on your own at home. Make sure you learn the syllabaries before starting class (both hiragana and katakana). Self-study and the kana will serve you a lot if you do Japanese at university or JET (I did not do JET, did an exchange programm, a lot more useful, but a lot more difficult). But Japanese's my specialty, so I had a lot more reasons to do that.

About Esperanto : It depends. It was very easy for me, but I am native French and half-native English. Nothing hard in terms of vocabulary here. Grammar is easy, but gets positively weird when you learn about the secrets behind EO. But you should be able to learn the basics within months.

Care to add Googlism to those teachings? ;)

Already done, though nobody will notice :)

tagnostic
March 3rd, 2009, 01:22 PM
are there any specific books on EO that you recommend?
always wanted to learn, just haven't gotten around to it.

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 01:31 PM
are there any specific books on EO that you recommend?
always wanted to learn, just haven't gotten around to it.

The best way to introduce yourself to Esperanto is by doing two specific things.

1) Everywhere on the web, you will have those ten-lesson courses. Depending on where you live and which language you are native in, you might choose your own. They are really the most useful courses to follow for a good introduction. Most basic points about grammar will be explained. This is not a good place to learn vocabulary. For that...

2) Find some place where you can discuss on-line in Esperanto. This is fairly easy to find, though I was lucky to find one on IRC back in those days when I chatted there. On-line discussion will help you learn a lot of vocabulary, because you can take your time reading the discussions, you can easily look out words in on-line dictionaries, and use them at your own pace.

Online multilingual dictionary I used : www.reta-vortaro.de (http://www.reta-vortaro.de)

Other than that, I don't know what would be good for someone who doesn't know much EO. When I finished the 10-lesson class, I read The PMEG (http://bertilow.com/pmeg/), which is a grammar of Esperanto written in Esperanto. Was a great study, both about and with the language. But you should first finish the 10-lesson course before.

tagnostic
March 3rd, 2009, 01:38 PM
I'm going to need a book with pages,
i learn better that way, (so I'm old, it works)
looks like fun,
if you can learn ADA & Cobol
how hard can it be?

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 01:49 PM
I'm going to need a book with pages,
i learn better that way, (so I'm old, it works)

I don't know of any good printed course.

However, if you required a hard copy, print out the ten lessons and turn them into a home-edited document to study. This will at least make point 1) easier for you. But the online lessons usually provide a tutor, which can correct your answers. (Yes, they're that advanced in Esperantia.)

looks like fun,
if you can learn ADA & Cobol
how hard can it be?

VERY easy.

tagnostic
March 3rd, 2009, 01:52 PM
rofl,
I will print & put in a binder,
it's a mental thing, retention seems to be better if I've held it and turned the pages, thanks

Tsar Phalanxia
March 3rd, 2009, 01:59 PM
I'm Quebecker, so Canadian. So North American-style French.

Gah! We already have zillions of you :icon_surprised:


About Japanese : Do some Japanese first on your own at home. Make sure you learn the syllabaries before starting class (both hiragana and katakana). Self-study and the kana will serve you a lot if you do Japanese at university or

Way ahead of you. I'm currently studying Katakana (I thought that because it was the simplest kana, it would therefore be the mist commonly used...Yeah, I'm a twit), and I aim to dabble in it a little bit more. Ofc, that depends on the University, I get picked for, so...

JET (I did not do JET, did an exchange programm, a lot more useful, but a lot more difficult).
How so?

But Japanese's my specialty, so I had a lot more reasons to do that.
How come it's your speciality, if you don't mind me asking?

About Esperanto : It depends. It was very easy for me, but I am native French and half-native English. Nothing hard in terms of vocabulary here. Grammar is easy, but gets positively weird when you learn about the secrets behind EO. But you should be able to learn the basics within months.
Cool. I know that the Grammar is mostly Romance based, and the vocab is mainly Slavic, so my Germanic language skillz will be of no use :D

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 02:24 PM
Gah! We already have zillions of you :icon_surprised:

The true Frog will appear some day near.

I suppose.


Way ahead of you. I'm currently studying Katakana (I thought that because it was the simplest kana, it would therefore be the mist commonly used...Yeah, I'm a twit), and I aim to dabble in it a little bit more. Ofc, that depends on the University, I get picked for, so...

You should have studied hiragana first (hope you did, you don't say). They are more commonly used in modern Japanese, and if you find furiganized texts, they'll be in hiragana, not katakana.

How so?

Well, JET is not a programm where your main objective is learning Japanese. So you cannot be full-time studying. But I was the lucky one, offered to study in Japanese on my stay, which is the best way to do things in Japan. You get to study both the language (you need to read it and write it) and some interesting subject at the same time. Did a lot good to me.

How come it's your speciality, if you don't mind me asking?

My major at university was East-Asian studies, subject Japan. So yes, my life has turned into a life where I study Japanese.

But why did I choose Japanese. This is probably the most absurd reason someone could find : This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_a30xaK1Rs).

Cool. I know that the Grammar is mostly Romance based, and the vocab is mainly Slavic, so my Germanic language skillz will be of no use :D

You have been misled if you think so. Vocabulary is mostly romance-based, while grammar, if superficially looking anything like European in style, has a lot more in common with Turkish and Chinese. Accent is however very European. German will be useful for wordbuilding, since they are pretty much identical in style.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 3rd, 2009, 03:41 PM
I don't want to waste time with Romaji though.

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 03:41 PM
It's not really necessary to know any kana before you start studying, since you're taught kana really quickly anyway. We memorized 10 kana a week until we were done with hiragana and started learning katakana, where we memorized 20 a week. Once you learn to recognise them and read a lot it becomes quite simple.

It's not necessary, but it is very useful, especially if you plan to do more than just learning basics to have fun. (Well, I learned to have fun, but not only the basics.) And you don't have to waste half your semester learning them, concentrating on your grammar and oral skills instead, skills that will help you a lot more later, and are a little more difficult to learn outside class.

Dr Goofy Mofo
March 3rd, 2009, 04:00 PM
I only know how to say I am a Cat in japanese

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 04:15 PM
おれわねこです。 lolwut

おれはねこです。 Beginner students' most common mistake. :)

俺は猫じゃないんだけど・・・

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 04:29 PM
That only happens when I type on a keyboard. And only sometimes. >_>

That's why I learned my own style of ro-maji. I always type "ha" even for the topic marker, even when I intend to use ro-maji. Makes it easier when you type it on your keyboard.

And sure you're a cat. You just don't know it yet.

じゃないって。犬なんだぞ。ワンワン!もう逃げてよ!^_^*

* I'm not. I'm a dog, really. Wouf! Be gone already :P

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 04:43 PM
Cheater :P

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 05:16 PM
And I also just downloaded the Rikaichan addon, so all I need to do to find out what the hell you're talking about is hover my mouse above the part I'm confused about (which so far has only been the last part where you said to run away >_>). MWAHAHAHAHAA! KNEEL BEFORE YOUR FIREFOXICAL SUPERIOR!

I won't. But the tools are certainly impressive.
しないんだけど、機能が確かにすごい。

But it doesn't beat having no need for these. As in my case :P
機能がいらないことに勝たないけど。俺のように ^ー^

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 05:29 PM
I use them as learning tools.

You might want to avoid these as much as you can.

Having everything transliterated doesn't help you learn writing that much (though it does have some good points), and having everything translated doesn't help you learn vocabulary and grammar (though again, you will learn a few things). Having references instead made me look for them and made me not want to look for them anymore. It's the best incentive to learn. Try to take those tools off as often as you can.

tagnostic
March 3rd, 2009, 06:00 PM
looks like
Rimbo & Tsar
are about to get
'checked'
:icon_eek:

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 06:17 PM
That's not really how I work, though. I'm fully capable of ignoring furigana if I recognise the kanji used. I'm still at a sufficiently early learning stage where any help is good help (as I have been studying for less than a year).

Plus, I'm technically not supposed to be learning kanji right now anyway, so I'm actually ahead somewhat. >_>

Still, as soon as you can, ditch the tools, train your hands.

And being ahead is never a bad thing. Especially in language learning.

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 07:26 PM
Rule #1 about homeworks : write something simple. If you can't decide on a specific time, settle on the most common time. If not for yourself, the most common time for most people or something around then.

-

Now, translation : 好(す)きな時(とき)に寝(ね)ています。

"好きな" means "that (I) like" "at (my) convinience". The whole sentence means "I sleep when I want (lit. "at the time that I like")".

There are more convoluted ways to express the same thing :

別(べつ)に決(き)まっていないときに・・・
"...at times not really defined."

But you should not use this, as it is considered a fairly advanced way of saying it.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 3rd, 2009, 07:37 PM
Yiuel is officially awesome ^_^

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 08:02 PM
Do you use おきますとねます for that?

Bad grammar, though an easy and comprehensible mistake.

Linking nouns in Japanese is as easy as in English, linking verbs however is not that easy. "to" is not a true conjuction (you will learn other "to"s however), it's something closer to a noun case (which means, only with nouns). This means that "X to Y" when X and Y are sentences is wrong. For that, you must use the dreadful te-form. Don't know if you've learned it yet, but, let me show you :

朝 七時 ごろ 起きて、夜 十一時 ごろ 寝て います。
morning seven-o'clock around get-up.-te evening 11-o'clock around sleep-te be-PRES.POS.POL

If we translated litterally, it would mean :

Usually waking up around 7, I usually go to sleep at 11.

So it looks much like a gerund. However, in Japanese, you cannot use the equivalent of "and" and must always use such gerund.

Yiuel is officially awesome ^_^

Now, now. Let us not be hasty. This is only an introduction thread :P

Yiuel
March 3rd, 2009, 08:35 PM
Well, thank you, though yeah, some of that stuff I haven't learned (like why you use ねています instead of just ねます。


I'll continue draining you of every drop of information I can think of later. >_>

Answer to your "why" : Habitual aspect. When you do something everyday, you use the progressive tense, showing that it is still going on.

Otherwise, this is probably the first advice I was given when learning Japanese : Avoid "Watashi ha" as much as you can. (Avoid its synonyms "Boku ha", "Ore ha" just as much.) Except in very appropriate situations like contrast (As for me, blablah...), it just sounds stupid-foreigner.

(On the opposite side, mastering things too well makes you sound "hen na gaijin", though joking about that very aspect can lessen the fear.)

Dr Goofy Mofo
March 4th, 2009, 05:28 AM
おれわねこです。 lolwut

A friend taught me how to say it in University and I used it as a battle cry.

Daruko
March 4th, 2009, 06:29 AM
Welcome to the CoG. Glad to have ya aboard.

Now, we have a lot of serious business going on around here, so please take your time to refocus your mind toward very serious behavior.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 4th, 2009, 09:05 AM
@ Yiue
How normal is stuff like this (http://japanesebugfights.com/10.htm) to Japan

Yiuel
March 4th, 2009, 03:56 PM
@ Yiue
How normal is stuff like this (http://japanesebugfights.com/10.htm) to Japan

Weird, but not uncommon.

If you thought TV was bad in the US, well, Japanese TV is ten times worse. Entertainment only, even news (Fox looks somewhat professional in Japan.).

rzm61
March 4th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Weird, but not uncommon.

If you thought TV was bad in the US, well, Japanese TV is ten times worse. Entertainment only, even news (Fox looks somewhat professional in Japan.).

And they don't win any prizes on their game shows. Which some of them are pretty weird/crazy/absurd.

Yiuel
March 4th, 2009, 09:22 PM
And they don't win any prizes on their game shows. Which some of them are pretty weird/crazy/absurd.

Just being on the show is enough. Making a fool of yourself in front of the whole of Japan is its own reward.

And yes, the craziest games come from Nipponesia. Sometimes, they're just plain stupid (according to me, at least), but others are fairly funny. Yet, it's funny how we don't get any of this silliness in anime. Even though anime are full of absurd tropes like the Big Fan of Doom, but these are, usually, historically explainable.

tagnostic
March 5th, 2009, 09:11 AM
Japan is small market,
ya gotta think big,
if your gonna
make a fool
of yourself.

Yiuel
March 5th, 2009, 01:15 PM
Japan is small market,
ya gotta think big,
if your gonna
make a fool
of yourself.

120 million people country doesn't seem to be a small market to me. Heck, they have a 35 million people city. This is more than my own country, concentrated in one single city.

tagnostic
March 5th, 2009, 01:53 PM
rofl

g' morning Yieul,

ya just gotta get yourself a bigger country,

(annex Japan?)

:icon_eek:

Yiuel
March 5th, 2009, 02:10 PM
(annex Japan?)

:icon_eek:

Ezis! I certainly will not do or wish that. Risking having the Canadian government destroy its marvellous train transit system? Hell no.

Yet, it would help us to have anime shows on Canadian TV. But I won't risk my train system to have more anime on CBC or its private cousins.

As for the more populous country : I certainly would wish so. I'd dream to have Montreal with over 100 million citizens. That would be über-cool. (I'm slightly urbophiliac.) But that will never happen. So better go to that one city that might achieve that level in a reasonable time.

tagnostic
March 5th, 2009, 02:28 PM
+rep
that was spew worthy

:icon_razz:

Sis,
help me out,
are your trains
better than our bus'es?

Sister Faith
March 5th, 2009, 06:42 PM
I'm really not sure how our train system stacks up to the rest of the world's but VIA at least has a rep for derailments (which would explain me :icon_rolleyes:).

At one time, Montreal's metro system was a feather in that city's cap, not sure about now. :icon_question:

Yiuel
March 5th, 2009, 08:12 PM
I'm really not sure how our train system stacks up to the rest of the world's but VIA at least has a rep for derailments (which would explain me :icon_rolleyes:).

At one time, Montreal's metro system was a feather in that city's cap, not sure about now. :icon_question:


I can say that Japan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Canada for train systems.

Now, for Mtl's Metro system, they still boast about it, but really, it's because there isn't much better in NorthAm except for New York and Honolulu (which uses buses only, but still good it seems). But Montreal will be crappy if you compare with anything from France or Japan.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 9th, 2009, 11:38 PM
For Tag

http://www.word2word.com/coursead.html#esperanto

djura
March 12th, 2009, 10:47 AM
I haven't sad hi, now have I. How rude of me... Haven't been around lately (one of disadvantages of being self supported)
Better late than ever though :)

tagnostic
March 12th, 2009, 10:50 AM
Djura,
have you been working again?!

hehehehe

djura
March 12th, 2009, 11:36 AM
shit man, I pulled a 100 hour week, and still jobs keep coming up. Made a contract with this building investor that requested I keep up with the rest of the crew, and meantime a friend of mine got sick so I had to go finish his work on another project. money is good but the paste is seriously fucked up.

Yiuel
March 12th, 2009, 03:26 PM
Well thanks djura :)

And you're not being rude. You're just busy. We can all understand, can we?

djura
March 13th, 2009, 11:33 AM
try telling that to my girlfriend :)

Yiuel
March 13th, 2009, 02:58 PM
try telling that to my girlfriend :)

It depends.

If your work is taking you 100h a week (as you imply), you are having a problem. Workaholism? You'll run out or energy for anything else, and it will piss off the people around you. And it might tire you in the long run.

If you are working a quite confortable 40h a week, then she has a problem, cause you need to give some work to receive some services, and these are usually paid, in our societ(ies)y, with a 40h/week work.

Take it like that.

djura
March 14th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Not workaholism but rather a my-friend-got-sick-and-project-needs-to-be-finished-ism + the money as source of all evil :)

Yiuel
March 14th, 2009, 02:22 PM
Having a work based completely on the health of someone without any possible backup is the worst thing to have. But our societies don't like to think about backups, they want to be flawless superheroes that can do anything at anytime, therefore limiting the use of any backup. So when they ultimately fail, as flawlessness is not of this world, they fail so badly that it causes even more problems. This is the real curse of our society, in terms of work etc.[/rant]

And no. Money (ressources) is not the source of evil. Not according to me, at least.

Daruko
March 14th, 2009, 05:00 PM
Having a work based completely on the health of someone without any possible backup is the worst thing to have. But our societies don't like to think about backups, they want to be flawless superheroes that can do anything at anytime, therefore limiting the use of any backup. So when they ultimately fail, as flawlessness is not of this world, they fail so badly that it causes even more problems. This is the real curse of our society, in terms of work etc.[/rant]

And no. Money (ressources) is not the source of evil. Not according to me, at least.
well, in the end, it sounds like they did have a back up, didn't they? and i hear what your saying about work, but it depends how much someone wants to work for something. Yes, people work too hard, like my sister for instance, but on the other hand, lots of kids grow up in my region being told that they should not take on too much, take their time, weigh out options, have fun while they're young, etc., and then never learn how to really apply themselves.

i was one of those kids until i started discovering more and more recently that i was capable of taking on just about as much as i could think of. failing is part of the process, and a crucial component of success. I say pursue every opportunity, knock on every door, do everything you want to do, and do it now; don't be afraid to take on too much. The root of the problem for people like my sister, who work too hard, isn't really that they work too hard. It's that they're working too hard for something that won't really make them happy, because it's all about the end result. I have found that the end result is relatively equal in significance as the means to that result; one must also find enjoyment of the process. And if you're enjoying the process (in some manner or another), then all the better for you when the end has been achieved! That is, if it's anything like the end yuo thought yuo set out to achieve, to begin with.

Also, yuo might be taking djura a bit too literally. He seemed to be making a simple allusion toward the fact that he makes a lot of sacrifices for financial gain, thus referring to the money/evil phrase. I don't think he was stating strong belief.

tagnostic
March 15th, 2009, 05:46 AM
story time,

true,

a long time ago, in a land far, far away, I had just gotten out of a judicial place of confinement. Ink up and down the arms, You have to tell all potential employers that your on parole (aggravated assault doesn't look good on a resume'), needless to say not even McD's would hire me.
There was a SteakHouse between my apt and the PO's office, I would cut through the parking lot, and happened to notice the back door was always open.
I walked in, there was a time clock and blank cards, I filled one out, punched in, and started washing dishes. Nobody noticed. I worked for 8hrs clocked out and went home. The next day, same thing, nobody noticed.
The 3d day this old guy is walking through the dish area, he looks up at me, "Do I Know Your?"
'No, I don't think so'
"thats funny cause I own this place, who hired you?"
'well, nobody really'
"how long you been doing this?"
'3 days, here's my time card'
"you obviously want to work,
I've got a couple of simple rules,
the first time you tell me
I can't
I won't
or
It's not my job
you'll be right about the last one.

I worked for Mr. Dan until he retired
he offered me a position as bodyguard
I respectfully declined

Daruko
March 15th, 2009, 07:29 AM
:icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

Tsar Phalanxia
March 15th, 2009, 03:23 PM
That is an awesome story.

Sister Faith
March 16th, 2009, 05:39 PM
Cool. :icon_cool:
Proof positive that you can make your own luck!

djura
March 17th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Cool. :icon_cool:
Proof positive that you can make your own luck!

the only luck you'll ever have is the one you've made your self (hope I got the grammar right at least)

Yiuel
March 17th, 2009, 03:05 PM
I'd say, "Help yourself, and the Universe will help you."

tagnostic : You have my full respect :)

Sister Faith
March 17th, 2009, 06:47 PM
I'd say, "Help yourself, and the Universe will help you."

tagnostic : You have my full respect :)

Dang! I used to know a quote that said what you just said only it went something like this: ''Be bold/fearless/self-reliant in the pursuit of your dream/goal. If it was meant to be, then the forces/powers of the universe will conspire to smooth your path."

I've since lost it and cannot remember the quote in it's entirety or who said it. And I can't seem to find it no matter how hard I pray. :icon_evil:

Does it sound familiar to anyone? I'd like to put it in my sig.

Yiuel
March 17th, 2009, 06:52 PM
Dang! I used to know a quote that said what you just said only it went something like this: ''Be bold/fearless/self-reliant in the pursuit of your dream/goal. If it was meant to be, then the forces/powers of the universe will conspire to smooth your path."

I've since lost it and cannot remember the quote in it's entirety or who said it. And I can't seem to find it no matter how hard I pray. :icon_evil:

Does it sound familiar to anyone? I'd like to put it in my sig.

I know it, and mine is only a slightly modified version, to reflect my own beliefs. It's an older-than-dust proverb. It comes straight from Homer's Odysseus. It was Athena, the greek goddess of war and knowledge, who thus spoke to Ulysse :

Help yourself, and the gods will help you.

Sister Faith
March 17th, 2009, 07:06 PM
I know it, and mine is only a slightly modified version, to reflect my own beliefs. It's an older-than-dust proverb. It comes straight from Homer's Odysseus. It was Athena, the greek goddess of war and knowledge, who thus spoke to Ulysse :

Help yourself, and the gods will help you.

No, that's not the quote I'm thinking of, although the message is the same.

This quote was a long one (about a paragraph) and what I liked about it was there was no mention of God in it. It only spoke of the mysterious, unseen forces of the universe. :icon_cool:

Yiuel
March 17th, 2009, 07:54 PM
I speak plainly about the Universe.

If something has an effect on me, I will have a link to it, and it won't stay mysterious. So speaking about mysterious forces of the Universe is misleading at best. That doesn't mean our Universe is not wonderful, because it is. But it is wonderful not because it's mysterious, but because it is still full of unknown.

As for the quote, then, I have no idea. I prefer to keep it simple : the meaning gets stronger that way.

Sister Faith
March 17th, 2009, 08:18 PM
I speak plainly about the Universe. If something has an effect on me, I will have a link to it, and it won't stay mysterious.
So speaking about mysterious forces of the Universe is misleading at best. That doesn't mean our Universe is not wonderful, because it is. But it is wonderful not because it's mysterious, but because it is still full of unknown.


It's not misleading at all, they are the same thing. What is the definition of mysterious if not the unknown?

tagnostic
March 18th, 2009, 12:16 PM
unknown
is plebian
agnostic:icon_eek: