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zexx0r
March 5th, 2009, 10:45 PM
Huh, I know I was gone for a day or two,
and that all of you guys missed me... I know it,
I'm sorry, I know you still love me.

Anyway,

at the beginning of the school year, I met a friend who had been moving all across the States because his parents did volunteering work everywhere, just to help people in need. Yes, they are very very religious. However, he didn't seem to be too upset when I told him about my Atheism.

He invited me yesterday to come to his church, just to see what it's like,
and guys, I was seriously impressed. When I came in, pastor came and asked me if I was a wrestler and that I was really good looking teenager - which was awkward in some way... Because I was a guest, I had to say something, so I decided not to mention Google, because I had this terrible feeling that they would kill me there...

After a short speech, I was surrounded by a lot of people who were asking me about my religion and my relationship with Jesus... Man, that was a lot of bullcrap that I said last night. However, there was a girl who came and gave a speech also, and she said that the only thing she was afraid before going to the college was the fact that she was a student of non-religious college.


She admitted. There is a lot of temptations when you go to college, like drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes/weed, doing tattoos, etc.
At the time, I thought... dude, she is saying all those things, and I had to complete a survey in which there was a line saying "Do you feel like God is talking through this person?" - Well... I felt the girl had some issues. Her mother and her father died when she was just a kid, no older than 6, and while she was telling us about her life, I was thinking if it was possible that our need for religion and some devine being protecting us all the time, comes from our innerself who is not secure and requires someone to be around. Even a day after listening to what she said, I wonder if there is an Atheist in this world who had terrible childhood - meaning - some kind of loss in their youth, or are Atheists kids who had grown up in successful or unsuccessful people, who have logical view on the whole world, regardless of their schooling history, emotional history?


Please, your opinions... and I know we love having fun, but I would ask all of you guys to be serious on this one. I'd like to see what you think about this.


Thank you!

rzm61
March 5th, 2009, 10:48 PM
When I came in, pastor came and asked me if I was a wrestler and that I was really good looking teenager


Holy shit. :icon_lol:

Too fucking funny. They aren't Catholics by chance are they? :icon_lol:


Edit:
And add an 'EL OH EL' on the 'doing tattoos' bit.

zexx0r
March 5th, 2009, 10:54 PM
No, they are Christians of some sort.
Please, be serious about this.

tagnostic
March 5th, 2009, 10:59 PM
it doesn't matter how your childhood was, you make your belief choices based on what you are taught, and then questioning everything about it, eventually, if you don't question and try to think for yourself, you become one of the indoctrinated dogmatic kool-aid drinking sheeple.
Athiesm is actually a refusal to follow societal norms and think for oneself whereas religon is a spiritual band aid for people who require a "higher" power for a sense of self worth as opposed to finding self worth and purpose within oneself.

Uby
March 5th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Well, personally I had few loses in my life, but that doesn't necessarily affect you religious choice. The way you develop, the way you were raised (by your family or your guardians). Those are the things that have most effect on your religious views. Personally, my family was religious, half Orthodox and other half was Catholic, but that didn't stop me from becoming an Atheist... ;)

Bladez0r
March 5th, 2009, 11:01 PM
Well, people do need something that will get us ut of trouble, and God is the one who always helps us. That our belief comes from inside, and because sometimes we cannot realy on ourselves and we are not sure if we are capable of doing something, we ask God for help! In that way, we get that strength from God. Now, some people believe that it's in our mind(so do I believe), but they are afraid to say it, because it is easier for someone to believe in supernatural force than to believe in their own capabilities.

zexx0r
March 5th, 2009, 11:15 PM
I agree, it is easier to ask someone else for help, than to help yourself,
and it's easier to copy an answer on the test, than to think about it and do it on your own.

Sometimes, I have this strong desire to say "God, make me stronger" - but then I remember... Oh wait, gotta help myself. I don't know, I normally don't think about things like that, but things she said made me think about it once again, and say to myself "well, I guess it WOULD be kind of easier to go through life thinking that there's someone protecting you", don't you agree?

tagnostic
March 5th, 2009, 11:39 PM
it's definately easier
but you remain a child,
at some point you have to take
the training wheels off, and rely on yourself

religon is an excuse,
no matter what happens
you say the magic words
"Gods Will" in whatever form
and nothing is ever your fault

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 12:00 AM
No, they are Christians of some sort.
Please, be serious about this.

I am being serious about this. A grown man shouldn't be hitting on teenagers.

zexx0r
March 6th, 2009, 12:21 AM
Funny... NOT

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 12:38 AM
Oh hi Borat. Didn't see you there.

zexx0r
March 6th, 2009, 12:57 AM
Thread can be locked.

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 01:04 AM
just relax

rzm was serious on that comment,
it was his interpretation of the events
you described and requested comment on

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 01:06 AM
just relax




Seriously mate. A serious discussion will take place. However it's hard to talk about growing up as an Atheist when I grew up as a Catholic/Methodist/Christian.

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 01:11 AM
I was raised Strict Southern Baptist
my Father & Grandfather & Great Grandfather
were all Ministers

it didn't take with me,
too many questions,
not enough solid
answers

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 01:12 AM
Tag, what are you talking about? All the answers you need are in one book (no not the Hitchhikers Guide)

Yiuel
March 6th, 2009, 01:17 AM
To answer the OP,

I wonder if there is an Atheist in this world who had terrible childhood - meaning - some kind of loss in their youth, or are Atheists kids who had grown up in successful or unsuccessful people, who have logical view on the whole world, regardless of their schooling history, emotional history?

Oh. I had something of a crappy childhood, and it didn't change much getting older. Won't discuss the details, but suffice to say that when I actually say what happened to me, nobody understands how this could have possibly happen (at all), and they sure question the whole situation and think of it as ridiculous at best. (Most people say it's Hell's next worst thing.)

Yet, ever since I began to think, the idea of a god never even came to me (despite having gone through catholic cathechism as a good Quebecker should when young, at that time.). Yes, Jesus was some kind of good philosopher, but no better than Sokrates (he's something of a model for me). Sokrates didn't even need a hope in his ressurection :)

My first reflexion on this has always been the funniest. I was in the car, around 8 years old. Then, my mother was asking me questions, but I answered with facial expressions like nods etc. She was annoyed and shouted : "Well, God gave Adam a tongue you know!", and I answered "And what about Lucy*?" That day, I knew I hadn't bought cathechism at all.

I am now 23, 15 years later. And despite my crappy childhood, despite the whole hardship thing, the idea that god is a frivolous idea never was swept away. The Universe is way to beautiful and way too much explainable on its own to need god even as an hypothesis. And the Universe is way too fun when you realize you're on your own.

But this may be due to how things went. Help came first from myself : absolutely pissed off of Hell's next worst thing, I rebelled (in a very civilized yet inflexible manner) and got out of it by my sheer will of wanting to get out. Oh my, this has had a huge impact on me : stop tolerating things and you'll see things change for better. Later, help came from friends, people around me with whom I had good relations. Sure, the whole thing left me slightly handicapped in terms of social relationships, but I am slowly readapting now.

And when I was finally exposed to religious things and communities, I liked the communities (friendship and community are great things), but despised their most fundamental beliefs, verging on bigotry associating good results with the wrong causes. Community has been a very important feature in my own thinking (there are reasons why I'm urbophiliac), but it doesn't go beyond community itself. (That's why I actually joined this forum. Felt like a good community.)

So that's pretty much it.

* I hope you understand the cultural reference.

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 01:34 AM
I'm pretty sure your reference was archealogical and not the beatle's.:D

Concur on Socrate's,
Plato, Epictetus are also good reads
Aristotle can be fun, but it's not a light read
Schoepenhoer can give me a headache
Nietsche is awesome if you have a sense of humor
Descarte's a lot of fun, disagree with some of his conclusions, but like the method
Ayn Rand's personal responsibility appeals to me a lot too

who else do you like?

Yiuel
March 6th, 2009, 02:03 AM
who else do you like?

Certainly not Any Rand.

However, there are reasons why I was nicknamed JPSartre-San by a friend of mine. I admire Alexander the Great's politics about multiculturalism as being a good precursor (but certainly not his beliefs, ew). Konfuzi is funny to read, like some of his ideas, but not all. Jane Jacobs for anything economic, yeah.

But Sokrates is the chief among all these.

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 02:14 AM
....you mean Socrates?

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 02:19 AM
I can go with Sartre' to a point,
but he gets a little convuleted
which violates Rule#1
"never make a simple thing complicated"

rmw
March 6th, 2009, 02:39 AM
rzm, I think the Greeks don't use the hard "c" and go with "k" instead.

I think a belief in something that cares about us can be a comfort to those who are seeking it. The Judeo-Christian tradition does not teach "god created the heavens and the earth...and then fucked off to leave humanity to fend for itself." Instead, it teaches that god not only created the universe, but is there for mankind--he is a loving god and cares for his "children." However, IMO one runs risk of that belief becoming a permanent crutch where god's will becomes the modus operandi, and not personal accountability, or even the fact that life can be cruelly unfair without the influence or help from god.

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 02:43 AM
rzm, I think the Greeks don't use the hard "c" and go with "k" instead.


http://www.mediabistro.com/agencyspy/original/nbc_the_more_you_know.jpg


Thanks RMW! :D

Dr Goofy Mofo
March 6th, 2009, 02:53 AM
Background or what has happen does not matter. It is true that someone raised religious or someone who has had something bad happen to them can lean towards religion, but these very things can lead always from it. Everything just depends on the person.

Yiuel
March 6th, 2009, 02:58 AM
....you mean Socrates?

In doubt, always use the native form. I transliterated directly from Σωκράτης. I read his Apology in French (duh) and they write Socrate, leaving out the final "s".

Otherwise, to me, life is just life.

Unfairness? I see some everyday. Yet, most of the time (not always) it's just silly human rules that causes those unfairness things to happen, so I don't blame the Universe, but mankind's bottomless stupidity. (Why would I blame a higher power? Humans me live through awful experiences, I'll blame them, and stay away from them as much as possible.)

I need nothing more to explain it. If we could get rid of that bottomless stupidity, what's left of the supposed unfairness of the Universe can be dealt with quite easily, and we can work to have these solved more easily.

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 03:06 AM
In doubt, always use the native form. I transliterated directly from Σωκράτης. I read his Apology in French (duh) and they write Socrate, leaving out the final "s".




I was just totally oblivious that there was a different spelling of his name. Even still I always read it So-Crates. Thanks Bill and Ted.

rmw
March 6th, 2009, 03:08 AM
Unfairness? I see some everyday. Yet, most of the time (not always) it's just silly human rules that causes those unfairness things to happen, so I don't blame the Universe, but mankind's bottomless stupidity. (Why would I blame a higher power? Humans me live through awful experiences, I'll blame them, and stay away from them as much as possible.)

I agree that much of the unfair things that befall people are caused by other people. However, diseases aren't caused by people (at least in the direct sense), and yet good people contract bad diseases all the time. For quite a few, they go with "it's god's will" or "god will get me through this." I suppose if that helps them cope personally, I've no problem with that. However, I do have trouble understanding why a just and loving god would give a kind and loving mother of three cancer (happened to a friend of mine), and not mete out such "punishments" to only the murderers, rapists, etc.

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 04:52 AM
you play the hand your dealt
life contains options, but it's not one
it is what it is

the only difference between
coal & a diamond
is how you handle pressure over time

djura
March 6th, 2009, 09:42 AM
Life is a bitch, and then you shutdown. Bad childhood is not to be taken lightly but then again, many people have problems growing up and they turn out all right. A guy I know had no issues growing up, a perfectly harmonious family, yet one day he decided that Orthodox was better than Catholic or Muslim, so he went to Bosnia and did some bad shit. Now he's in a wheelchair.
Blaming other people for stuff that happens to you, and seeking higher power to solve your problems, besides being incredibly dumb, doesn't justify lack of initiative. God will not do anyone's work nor make a choice for them.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 6th, 2009, 10:09 AM
Certainly not Any Rand.

However, there are reasons why I was nicknamed JPSartre-San by a friend of mine. I admire Alexander the Great's politics about multiculturalism as being a good precursor (but certainly not his beliefs, ew).

rzm, I think the Greeks don't use the hard "c" and go with "k" instead.

WIN WIN WIN :icon_surprised: