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rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 12:39 AM
Everyone here needs to see this.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3929535037535102662&ei=-GewSeGjJZTuqAKMr8GgBA&q=jesus+camp&hl=en

brutelord
March 6th, 2009, 12:47 AM
That is the scariest film I have ever seen.

tagnostic
March 6th, 2009, 12:49 AM
I'm going to have nightmares
:(

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 01:05 AM
Yeah, this is a disgusting film. I cannot believe this is being allowed. These poor kids.

Dr Goofy Mofo
March 6th, 2009, 02:43 AM
This is normal america and I saw this about a year ago.

Granted this is assuming it is the same one I saw... same title.

rzm61
March 6th, 2009, 02:44 AM
I don't doubt it.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 6th, 2009, 09:25 AM
Tsar's thoughts:

1. Hehe, Loki films

2. Yes, you did start the culture wars, you bastards.

3. George Bush? Holy? lol

4. wtf
yay Brainwashing

5. Thing is, if every girl there had a hijab on, and every boy a turban, and every child sang Allah instead of God, then those exact same parents in the audience would be horrified beyond imagining. Fucking hypocrites.

6. Also, that's terrible music.

7. EVANGELISATION MANUAL? WIN THE LOST? TRY TO WIN ME, YOU FUCKERS!

8. gah mullets

9. Ugh, did you see the way that the mum pulled her kid's hand up?

10. lawl, "God, fix the world". I think he's broke it enough already, amirite?

11. Oh great, now she's teaching the kids to malnourish themselves.

12. Edukashun?

13. Hmm. Glossolalia. Never a good sign.

14. Correction "Children of evangelicval parents"

15. I liek the way she uses "Usable", when referring to children.

16. Who are the enemies? People like me? :(

17. "Websites that will shake you to your foundations"
No shit sherlock.

18. "I want to see young people who are as comitted to the cause as Christ as others are as commited to the cause of Islam"

Oh, eat a dick.

19. "We have the truth"

-_-

20. Bush + credibility?

21. Oh, THIS movie. I've seen that Eden clip before. It is the biggest moutnain of fail I have ever seen in my life.

This will continue to be edited and added to, as I'm watching it at the minute

22. "Just based on a belief" Irony ftw

23. Also, I love the way they use a dinosaur, so it looks like some credibility is given to the movie.

24. "0.6 degrees"...When you consider that the average temperature on the planet is about 14.2 degrees C, that's an increase of over 5%.

25. The fact that she says "It's not gonna hurt us" despite living in Missouri, of all places, would be funny, were it not true.

26. "Only possible answer" YAY MAGIC

27. Oh so now GALILEO, is wrong? Good Google, they are full of shit.

28. "Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values" EPIC FAIL. It was founded on Secular values.

29. I like Jesus. If he existed, he was a cool guy. But I don't think he's the son of YHWH. Does that mean I'm against them?

30. Ooh, and adult superstore.

31. Oh well, it was just Jesus' will that she didn't get a strike.

32. They're not the ones going to be judging me" No, it's going to be Ahura Mazda.

33. oh noes
CHRISTIAN ROCK

34. Huh, she's called Tory. Appropriate.

35. "Dancing for the flesh"? Wtf is that?

36. We should have a Pledge of Allegiance for the CoG.

I'll finish this later, and conclude it.

37. Lawl, "Devil's Lake"

38. "We pray over the Powerpoint Presentations. Devil, we know what you love to do in mediums like this," xD

39. Ouch, Christian Rap.

40. Lion Cubs = Sin? :icon_question:

41. Hmm, fuzzy sin.

42. Haha, Harry Potter is an enemy of God. :D

43.

Sister Faith
March 6th, 2009, 07:59 PM
38. "We pray over the Powerpoint Presentations. Devil, we know what you love to do in mediums like this," xD

Yup. That's the same video I made my then 14 yr old kid watch.

Basically, I have no wish to dictate what my kids choose to believe. If they choose to be theists, that's ok with me as long as they don't become fanatics about their chosen religion. That video was the perfect example of the type of fanaticism I warn my kids about.

He watched the video with a look of horror on his face until they started praying over the chairs and desks, at which point we started to laugh. When they got to praying over the PowerPoint presentation we fell out of our chairs & roflao'd!

I guess we can thank God for that little bit of much needed comic relief. :icon_twisted:

Yiuel
March 6th, 2009, 08:31 PM
24. "0.6 degrees"...When you consider that the average temperature on the planet is about 14.2 degrees C, that's an increase of over 5%.

I must comment this comment. It is not an increase in %. Temperature doesn't work that way.

28. "Our nation was founded on Judeo-Christian values" EPIC FAIL. It was founded on Secular values.

This could be argued for decades. We are just beginning to have values that we could describe as secular. A lot of what we, non-theists, hold as valuable has its origins in thinking within Christian circles. Just not the fundies' circles.

(Today, we are slowly taking our distances with (non-fundie) Christian values. To me, a good thing.)

Will.
March 9th, 2009, 05:51 PM
My eyes! THE CONCENTRATED EVIL! -convulsion- 123123123

Fallen Hero
March 10th, 2009, 06:50 PM
"Too many of our christian brothers and sisters are fat and lazy" - a really fat woman

Will.
March 10th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Frederick Neizchie - God is Dead
God - Frederick Neizchie is Dead

tagnostic
March 11th, 2009, 07:49 PM
Google, Nietsche is listed
God is not.

Al Farabi
March 15th, 2009, 05:35 AM
Man fundementalism is such a totally out of control way to live your life. Those people must be such knots of confusion and guilt. The results of chronic inflexibility are so surreal and disturbing. A very effective plea for open-mindedness

Sister Faith
March 16th, 2009, 05:32 PM
Man fundementalism is such a totally out of control way to live your life. Those people must be such knots of confusion and guilt. The results of chronic inflexibility are so surreal and disturbing. A very effective plea for open-mindedness

Don't forget fear.

Edit: Good to see ya, Al. :icon_cool:

tagnostic
March 16th, 2009, 05:55 PM
Man fundementalism is such a totally out of control way to live your life. Those people must be such knots of confusion and guilt. The results of chronic inflexibility are so surreal and disturbing. A very effective plea for open-mindedness

postulate's a mind
not stipulated in
fundies

Puck the Pooka
March 25th, 2009, 12:36 AM
I think I've seen this before, but I'll watch it again when I finish my homework.

5. Thing is, if every girl there had a hijab on, and every boy a turban, and every child sang Allah instead of God, then those exact same parents in the audience would be horrified beyond imagining. Fucking hypocrites.

Your right Tsar, that's the scary part.

-convulsion- 123123123

I'm not sure if your referring to the convulsions some of the kids have in a ritual known as being 'slain in the spirit.' If you are, it's happened to me, and it's quit pleasurable, and it makes what the preachers saying VERY convincing. The feeling is better than sex, and most drugs.

And I'm sorry for being away so long.

Tsar Phalanxia
March 26th, 2009, 03:32 PM
YAY PUCK IS BACK

WIN

rzm61
March 26th, 2009, 03:42 PM
I'm not sure if your referring to the convulsions some of the kids have in a ritual known as being 'slain in the spirit.' If you are, it's happened to me, and it's quit pleasurable, and it makes what the preachers saying VERY convincing. The feeling is better than sex, and most drugs.


:icon_lol:
But there are some drugs, it just can't beat.

Al Farabi
March 27th, 2009, 06:13 AM
what about sex and most drugs simultaneously?

Tsar Phalanxia
April 1st, 2009, 01:30 PM
Alright, I'm finally picking this up again.

43. What? You can get Holy Bottled Water?

44. No more hypocricy?
...
...

45. Ugh. The way they force, bully, frighten children into believing is absoloutely sickening, and fucking enraging.

46. wat
Ghost stories that honour God?
Christianity IS a ghost story!

47. I love the way how Adam and Eve are covered in leaves :D

48. I bet my balloon is tiny.

49. It's a sickle! COMMIE

50. At least they know what Harry looks like....

51. The way they all look at each othger is quite scary, when one of the kids reveals he watches Harry Potter. :\

52. I guess we're not a derad church, eh?

53. "Key generation to Jesus coming back"? Uh yeah, probably considering we're the most secular generation who have ever lived. :icon_cool:

54. "The government took Jesus out of your schools"

Good.

55. In the cup smashing incident, I actually felt chills go down my spine. The fact that they're training these kids, from birth, to infilitrate the government and secular institutions...it just leaves me speechless. It's evil, just totally evil.

56. They're making children cry. They're scaring children into believing their lies.

Cunts.

57. "Make war with them"? Oh, yes it's war. This is a struggle between rational and extremist. Liberty and tyranny. Life and fear. And we will win, because with every scientific paper that is published, with every child who is abandoned by his church and with every theist ally who joins us, we will eradicate the rot of fundamentalism from this scarred and blistered Earth.

58. "America is supposed to be God's nation"
WRONG
Freedom of Religion is Freedom FROM Religion!
It's just a pity these poor kids aren't Free.

59. I don't think all the bl;essing in the world would help Bush now.

60. Heh. Sounds like Arabic.

61. That's it. Stifle debate, Indoctrinate the youth, Start the chants. Build a Fascist Nation.

62. Ugh. Ted Haggard. Heh heh.

63. "Our freedom is guaranteed"...Except the freedom from religion.

64. So, they tell them lies, just to keep them happy? Eat a dick.

65. "A lot of people aren't afraid to die for God"
Yep. Happening all the time in Aghanistan and Pakistan at the minute.

66. "Extreme Liberals".
*Facepalm* That's a contridicition of terms.
Oh, and I'm probably a more "Extreme Liberal" then she could ever imagine. For example, I support the establishment of SATAN'S WELFARE STATE!

67. "Extreme Liberals will be quaking in their boots"
Yeah, from ANGER

68. Oh right, they're black, so they must be Muslim. Yeah.

Wow. What a film. However, the year is 2009. There is a Democrat in the White House. We have the most secular generation in history. The clock is ticking for Fundamentalists. And reason will triumph over extremism.

rzm61
April 1st, 2009, 08:42 PM
The clock is ticking for Fundamentalists. And reason will triumph over extremism.

We can only hope.

Al Farabi
April 2nd, 2009, 04:42 AM
We can only hope.

All things in the universe tend towad equilibrium, and, as Plato said, Justice is balance.

rzm61
April 2nd, 2009, 06:29 AM
All things in the universe tend towad equilibrium, and, as Plato said, Justice is balance.

Not when justice is holding a holy buy-bull in hand.

Yiuel
April 5th, 2009, 12:18 AM
Not equilibrum, Al Farabi. It is total entropy, everything the same, no variation. As far as we have understood the laws.

And justice being balance? Mah...

Al Farabi
April 5th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Not equilibrum, Al Farabi. It is total entropy, everything the same, no variation. As far as we have understood the laws.

And justice being balance? Mah...

What do you think justice is?

Yiuel
April 5th, 2009, 11:08 PM
It depends on what you mean by justice.

In our times, with the judicial system as we know it? Nothing but a human invention, there to make sure nothing is worthless in life. It is there to make ourselves happy : happy that the killer is punished for what he has done to the innocent. Happy that the raper is punished for what he has done to the innocent. Something of an artificial mean to have some kind of retribution, to cause pain to the one who caused pain. I hold no value at all to such a system, vengeful and serving no purpose. And certainly the ugliest creation of our kind.

If you mean justice as in an attempt to bring out the best of innocent people, like when we give to the poor, or when we help the striken by fate, now this is something I prefer. Life made you born there, with unworthy parents or an unworthy society or leadership? If you mean that kind of justice that will try to enable to make up for that as best as possible, then this is a googol-time better justice than the one in my previous paragraph. It is the tool to make sure that possibilities turn out as much as possible into realities.

Al Farabi
April 6th, 2009, 03:38 AM
It depends on what you mean by justice.

In our times, with the judicial system as we know it? Nothing but a human invention, there to make sure nothing is worthless in life. It is there to make ourselves happy : happy that the killer is punished for what he has done to the innocent. Happy that the raper is punished for what he has done to the innocent. Something of an artificial mean to have some kind of retribution, to cause pain to the one who caused pain. I hold no value at all to such a system, vengeful and serving no purpose. And certainly the ugliest creation of our kind.

If you mean justice as in an attempt to bring out the best of innocent people, like when we give to the poor, or when we help the striken by fate, now this is something I prefer. Life made you born there, with unworthy parents or an unworthy society or leadership? If you mean that kind of justice that will try to enable to make up for that as best as possible, then this is a googol-time better justice than the one in my previous paragraph. It is the tool to make sure that possibilities turn out as much as possible into realities.

Actually, I mean "what is justice?" What does it mean to be just?

Yiuel
April 6th, 2009, 04:19 AM
Then, to me :

To attempt to bring out the best of innocent people, like when we give to the poor, or when we help the striken by fate, now this is something I prefer. To try to make up for the lacks that hinders that as best as possible. To make sure that possibilities turn out as much as possible into realities.

Essentially, making sure, as much as you can, that people can do as much as they can.

Al Farabi
April 8th, 2009, 12:55 AM
Essentially, making sure, as much as you can, that people can do as much as they can.

Hmmm. Don't slavemasters and dictators do this? Are they just?

Yiuel
April 8th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Hmmm. Don't slavemasters and dictators do this? Are they just?

There is a difference between making things possible and making things mandatory. Slavemasters or dictators will take the things in a mandatory way.

Also, we can question whether they are really making people do their best, or just taking people in a way, and making sure that, in what way they are forcing their slaves and minions to act, they will do as much as they possibly can.

Al Farabi
April 8th, 2009, 01:17 AM
There is a difference between making things possible and making things mandatory. Slavemasters or dictators will take the things in a mandatory way.

Also, we can question whether they are really making people do their best, or just taking people in a way, and making sure that, in what way they are forcing their slaves and minions to act, they will do as much as they possibly can.

Okay, I see a man about to shoot a woman. I grab him from behind and force him to drop the gun.

Was it just to force a particular action (dropping the gun) in that case? Or is forcing any action always unjust?

Yiuel
April 8th, 2009, 01:44 AM
I feel like with Socrates just now :)

Okay. Forcing an action in not always unjust. Nor is not forcing one just. An unjust action involves destruction, while a just one involve maintenance.

The man is about to destroy some women. It is unjust to the women to killed. Now, you make it so that she isn't killed, so you did something just, as she wasn't destroyed.

Al Farabi
April 8th, 2009, 04:45 AM
I feel like with Socrates just now :)

Okay. Forcing an action in not always unjust. Nor is not forcing one just. An unjust action involves destruction, while a just one involve maintenance.

The man is about to destroy some women. It is unjust to the women to killed. Now, you make it so that she isn't killed, so you did something just, as she wasn't destroyed.

Is it always just to maintain and unjust to destroy? What if a meteor is coming toward the Earth, such that our only recourse is to blow it up? Such an action involves both destruction (of the meteor) and maintenance (of the Earth). Is that action just or unjust?

Perna de Pau
April 8th, 2009, 01:51 PM
I feel like with Socrates just now :)

The man is about to destroy some women. It is unjust to the women to killed. Now, you make it so that she isn't killed, so you did something just, as she wasn't destroyed.

It can be more complicated than that: what if the said woman was about to detonate a bomb which would kill 1000 persons? Should you still grab the arm of the man about to shoot her and force him to drop the gun?

But have we not had this debate somewhere else?

Yiuel
April 8th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Both of you have entered the weird field of my morality : things are thus in our world that everything is in movement, building and destroying. Whatever we do, will we destroy things, and whatever happens in the Universe, it will destroy things. To me, there is no way that the Universe can even be slightly good or evil, everything evens out.

The meteor could destroy us : but it could also save Earth from a runaway greenhouse effect induced by humans, leaving at least some life to persue existence. But we could maintain ourselves and destroy the meteor, but then, we might kill ourselves by other means unchecked by the meteor now.

Same thing for your situation Perna. The woman is about to attack the integrety of something else, society. The question here is not whether killing her is right or wrong, but what do you favor. What will help you more maintain yourself? Probably an enduring society. So what is the best course of action, no withstanding any other unknown detail? Save the 1000 people or the woman?

All these things are in a weird balance, and our choices are mostly dictated by maintaining our situation. Empathy and altruism are part of this, as humans have a lot more chances of surviving in group than alone. Setting was is just or unjust is a pondering on what you consider valuable to maintain, ans how to maintain it. And it is no easy equation, considering all the details to take in account.

Al Farabi
April 8th, 2009, 11:05 PM
Both of you have entered the weird field of my morality : things are thus in our world that everything is in movement, building and destroying. Whatever we do, will we destroy things, and whatever happens in the Universe, it will destroy things. To me, there is no way that the Universe can even be slightly good or evil, everything evens out.

The meteor could destroy us : but it could also save Earth from a runaway greenhouse effect induced by humans, leaving at least some life to persue existence. But we could maintain ourselves and destroy the meteor, but then, we might kill ourselves by other means unchecked by the meteor now.

Same thing for your situation Perna. The woman is about to attack the integrety of something else, society. The question here is not whether killing her is right or wrong, but what do you favor. What will help you more maintain yourself? Probably an enduring society. So what is the best course of action, no withstanding any other unknown detail? Save the 1000 people or the woman?

All these things are in a weird balance, and our choices are mostly dictated by maintaining our situation. Empathy and altruism are part of this, as humans have a lot more chances of surviving in group than alone. Setting was is just or unjust is a pondering on what you consider valuable to maintain, ans how to maintain it. And it is no easy equation, considering all the details to take in account.

Hold on, so you don't believe justice exists? It's just utilitarianism?

Yiuel
April 8th, 2009, 11:31 PM
I do not believe in moral universalism. To me, it's a moot idea, and something, even though reassuring for our trying-to-be-reasonable-mind, illogical.

So yeah, you can be surprised :)

Al Farabi
April 9th, 2009, 12:01 AM
I do not believe in moral universalism. To me, it's a moot idea, and something, even though reassuring for our trying-to-be-reasonable-mind, illogical.

So yeah, you can be surprised :)

I'm not really surprised by your beliefs, I'm just surprised that you tried to define something that you don't believe can be defined.

Yiuel
April 9th, 2009, 01:22 AM
Because there is something that I can call "justice". It probably isn't the same thing as you, though. It is somehow those things you think you and others might have to do within your community to make sure the community goes as good as it can it the way you wish for it to go.

To me, any morality (and from there, justice) is bound to be relative to the existence and maintenance of something. And it is, indeed, something that we socially define, or so do I think. However, the doom of humans is to have multiple layers of sociality :

- oneself
- family (socially cohesive unity)
- community (economically autonomous unity)
- nation (politically independant unity)
- humanity (biologically defined unity)

And these layers may be further refined, like the European level in, oddly enough, Europe, or the provincial level in Quebec, for a closer one to you.

This multilayered sociality causes various constraints on what we can do morally. Killing an individual (even oneself) might actually be a good thing for one of the layers. (We could say that most suicides are a problem because it destroys the very unit the suicidal individual wishes to protect.).

Think of the Nazi, that you have quoted in another forum. They are of the national level (and, arguably, something akin to a biological level as well, if ill-defined). Yet, we could say that, on the other side, you have other national levels that wished to protect themselves (with very good reasons), and that it can be argued that the whole human level (threatened) was brought up to push down the supremacists, even though they acknowledged they were part of the human group.

This is actually how I solve moral dilemmas without falling in the "universal morality" that I deem absurd. At one point, the focus changes, and the most problematic moral dilemmas can be understood as being a choice on what you will place your focus on.

Will you be completely altruist to the point of turning eusocial like ants, or indeed body cells, or will you be selfish to the point of focussing on yourself? This dilemma is the center of my moral reflexions, and there is to me no ideal answer, because something will be broken either way.

Al Farabi
April 9th, 2009, 04:27 AM
morality (and from there, justice)

Hmmm I would argue that a sense of justice must logically precede specific moral maxims. A set of morals, if they are to be internally consistant, must start with a single concept - justice - and from there derive situational maxims by applying that sense of justice to myriad abstract scenarios.

Will you be completely altruist to the point of turning eusocial like ants, or indeed body cells, or will you be selfish to the point of focussing on yourself? This dilemma is the center of my moral reflexions, and there is to me no ideal answer, because something will be broken either way.

Those aren't the only two possible options. The key to justice (just ask Plato) is balance.

Yiuel
April 9th, 2009, 04:49 AM
Hmmm I would argue that a sense of justice must logically precede specific moral maxims. A set of morals, if they are to be internally consistant, must start with a single concept - justice - and from there derive situational maxims by applying that sense of justice to myriad abstract scenarios.

I would argue that you must first have "needs". From this, you will derive "means" to fulfill your need. These means will be defined and bounded by rules (morality) through which you will execute them (justice, the application of morality).

Those rules, you will have learned through education, experience and reflexion on your education and experience. Education itself will be the result of the experiences of those before you. These will teach you the various limits that you will reach beyond which you will (supposedly) fail. From there, you can do whatever you want, within the limits that you have learned and later redefined. Morality is thus a set of rules that limits your own actions for your own good, but also for the good or larger social groupings. And justice is then its application.

Those aren't the only two possible options. The key to justice (just ask Plato) is balance.

I just said it was dilemma, but all answers between are possible. And what would be the "balance"? Balance between selfishness and altruism? But altruism towards who? And where falls the balance between both? If indeed there is any balance.

I claim that morality is more fine-tuned than that, a part of it is taking care of oneself, and part of it is showing altruism (helping maintain) towards social groups ever bigger, and that sometimes destroying groups may be just well for other groups and that, ultimately, no matter how hard we try, we will be destroying things in order to keep ourselves living, and that it's an everlasting struggle between maintenance and destruction that cannot be fully resumed and that will leave situation where you have two elements you wish to save but yet will always have to sacrifice one to have the other survive. Indeed, whenever you want an omelette, you will have to break some eggs. Every action, every change is doomed to have disruptive consequences. Indeed, entropy itself won't let you build without things being desorganised elsewhere. So really, morality is just a struggle to maintain oneself within the limits of success for ourselves and, indirectly, the social units beyond us.

(Cells do exactly the same thing with us. Ultimately, we are just a tool for our cells to be able to exist and live. And DNA does the same thing with cells. Beyond DNA though, there is no self-reproduction, so maintenance and morality is not an issue beyond DNA.)

tagnostic
April 9th, 2009, 07:05 AM
there is no 'justice', just retribution & reward, justice is an abstract concept that no one can agree on, if no two people can agree on it, it does not constitute a universal concept or truth

justice is just that
justifying an outcome
that satisfies You

Perna de Pau
April 11th, 2009, 09:59 PM
...justice is an abstract concept that no one can agree on, if no two people can agree on it, it does not constitute a universal concept or truth...

Wise words

(I'm doing all right thanks Tag)