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sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 10:09 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Jillamanda
October 4th, 2006, 10:13 PM
I think I like that... :lol:

sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 10:17 PM
i think i do too. 'tis why i posted it. but me n my loud mouth have another thing to say

sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 10:19 PM
i have to laugh at all the die hard christains there are out here. they think they are totally right. but u have to stop and think guys. if u say that we are going to hell for this, then you go agianst one of the very fundamentals for your religion. judging people. just by stating that we are going to hell u have judged somebody. congrats on self confliction

Jillamanda
October 4th, 2006, 10:25 PM
I don't know how a god you don't believe in can send you to a place you don't believe in. :?

sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 10:27 PM
oh not me, i'm talking about people who tell me i'm going to hell then expect to call it a night of being a good christian when they just judged somebody

Jillamanda
October 4th, 2006, 10:30 PM
Agreed, sorry, I wasn't directing it at you....

sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 10:30 PM
ah

mrman505
October 4th, 2006, 11:53 PM
That is so awesome. I am using that line in another forum, where I am attempting to convert Christians.

sv3nn
October 4th, 2006, 11:58 PM
three cheers for christians getting own3d!

Omni
October 5th, 2006, 12:59 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt
Unless you are Douglas Adams then I suggest that you cite where you got that idea..

Anyway he said it much better!

Nameless
October 5th, 2006, 08:29 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Actually, assuming a god existed, he wouldn't need faith to exist. So that throws that out the window.

the traveller
October 5th, 2006, 09:11 AM
a related video

http://www.devilducky.com/media/39566/

Isn't The Simpsons grand?

Fallen Hero
October 5th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Yes, yes indeed it is.

Jesus Servant
October 5th, 2006, 11:19 AM
Jesus exists everyday in the lifes of believers, there personal encounters the radiance in their faces, the peace in their lives the self actualisation that they reach and Jesus also exists for you my brother . I pray that you find the Lord Jesus as He is the one constant in this fickle world.

Fallen Hero
October 5th, 2006, 11:49 AM
Wrong, there are two constants in this world.

1. We will continue to blow each other up until we no longer exist

2. We will continue to breed until the social, economic, racial or spacial pressures cause us to kill each other, or die from pestilence and plague.

Jesus Servant
October 5th, 2006, 01:19 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

SirRuben
October 5th, 2006, 01:27 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

Evolution! Nuff said. Your feeble minds just can't comprehend the fact that life evolves slowly and it has taken millions of years to come to where we are today. You take the easy and fast way out. "An invisible something in the skies created us all. What a BRILLIANT idea. Then i don't have to waste my mind figuring out all the other stuff, this is enough for my intelligence"

Carnifex
October 5th, 2006, 04:17 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

*sigh* asserting that evolution has been proven incorrect time and time again doesnt make it true. Every point you make from now on (even though you have said you have left) cant be taken seriously now. Darwin has been proved wrong yes, but evolution has grown since darwin. WE DO NOT BLINDLY FOLLOW FIGURES LIKE CHRISTIANS, we accept that he was wrong about things, evolution has grown since then. EVOULTION HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN WRONG, EVER, OTHERWISE THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY WOULD ACCEPT IT.

Goddamnit, open your eyes.

Prove life has to be created by life? Were you around at the dawn of life? No

Plus for the original disproof of a christian god.

1) God cannot prove he exists. Just because he doesnt, doesnt mean he cant, he is omnipotent afterall, you could simply argue that he feels it is necessary he doesnt prove it
2) For proof denies faith. True
3) Without faith god is nothing. God doesnt need our faith
4) But by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt. Since the first points didnt work then all that is asserted from this is that he does exist. Luckily it doesnt because even Christians cannot prove he exists by speculating about the past

antony
October 5th, 2006, 04:33 PM
2) For proof denies faith. True

Not exactly. Any logical proof must start with either axioms, which are unsupported, or physical observations, where there is always the possibility (however small) that the observations are inaccurate or inadequate in some way or another.

Carnifex
October 5th, 2006, 04:45 PM
2) For proof denies faith. True

Not exactly. Any logical proof must start with either axioms, which are unsupported, or physical observations, where there is always the possibility (however small) that the observations are inaccurate or inadequate in some way or another.

I could simply argue that nothing is essentially provable (apart from things we define ourselves like maths.) So yes proving something would eliminate faith.

Plus we are using religious language here, where faith is reliant on something not being proven, and proven in the sense that it would be highly illogical to believe anything otherwise.

sv3nn
October 5th, 2006, 11:41 PM
let me reveiw wat i said for those untouched by intelligence:
1. for proof denies faith- proof denies faith because faith iteself is beleive without proof
2. and without faith god is nothing- if there is nobody to beilive in him, he is not there, tell me how a god is supposed to exist if nobody beleives in him?
3.but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt- those points above are now true, so this last statement is now also true

another thing:
"Not exactly. Any logical proof must start with either axioms, which are unsupported, or physical observations, where there is always the possibility (however small) that the observations are inaccurate or inadequate in some way or another."

it doesnt matter if they are inaccurate, proof is a widley accepted fact. take any other scientific laws. Newton cannot PROVE that there is gravity, it is just widley accepted that the laws he created are real and gravity is there. same applies to evolution. if it wasent for a bunch of ignorant people cough christians cough, evolution would be a law. its just that many people think that an invisible almighty being created everything, and now that there is scientific evidence to support evolution, they are too stuborn to say they are wrong.

g00gleisan00b2
October 6th, 2006, 01:39 AM
its funny how people can point and laugh at a god who had been believed in seince the beginning of the world, and then believe in a -god- that has existed for a little over a decade? and i thought I was insane!

this is ludacris, (is that spelled right?) :|

Nameless
October 6th, 2006, 02:08 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

- Evolution, genius.
- Life is not a property of a particle. Life is the propety given to a collection of particles that forful certain requirements (eg. reproduction).
- Evolution has not be proven incorrect, it has actually been proven correct. That you don't know that is laughable.
- People don't believe in Darwin's theory. However, his theory was the first step towards the level of understanding towards our scientific knowledge today, and arguably one of the biggest. You might as well wonder how people can believe in the earth because it has been proven not to be flat so many times.
- Have you ever picked up a science textbook? Ever? No? Do so now, and read it. No the Bible does not count.

Aviel
October 6th, 2006, 02:37 AM
I agree wholeheartedly the the Christian God does not exist, but not for the reason stated. I think that He does not exist because when though about using almost any logival thought process, how could He? For example, how is it even physically possible? The Christian God defies the laws of physics, while Google does not.[/b]

g00gleisan00b2
October 6th, 2006, 12:36 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

Evolution! Nuff said. Your feeble minds just can't comprehend the fact that life evolves slowly and it has taken millions of years to come to where we are today. You take the easy and fast way out. "An invisible something in the skies created us all. What a BRILLIANT idea. Then i don't have to waste my mind figuring out all the other stuff, this is enough for my intelligence" an invisible something is way better than a particle of NOTHINGNESS <<< extra fries on that word blew up to create a WHOLE UNIVERSE OF LIGHTYEARS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION, with PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE ON JUST ONE PLANET and then a tadpole came out of the ocean, and became a turtle, then the turtle evolved into a chimpmunk, then a bird, then an ape, then a human being.

pwnt.

Nameless
October 6th, 2006, 12:51 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

So tell me brother if God did not create humans where did they come from. Remember two particles with no life can not make life - so the big bang theory which is laughable and the theory of evolution which has been proven incorrect time and time again is also incorrect. Darwin the author of evolution as been disproven so many times it is a wonder people still believe in it. Life has to be created by life...prove me wrong. and that life is the Alpha and Omega - Jehovah Alshaddai

Evolution! Nuff said. Your feeble minds just can't comprehend the fact that life evolves slowly and it has taken millions of years to come to where we are today. You take the easy and fast way out. "An invisible something in the skies created us all. What a BRILLIANT idea. Then i don't have to waste my mind figuring out all the other stuff, this is enough for my intelligence" an invisible something is way better than a particle of NOTHINGNESS <<< extra fries on that word blew up to create a WHOLE UNIVERSE OF LIGHTYEARS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION, with PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE ON JUST ONE PLANET and then a tadpole came out of the ocean, and became a turtle, then the turtle evolved into a chimpmunk, then a bird, then an ape, then a human being.

pwnt.

Okay, just out of curiosity: How old are you? Ten? Eight? Have you at any point in your life paid attention in science class?

(and anyway, how do you know that there isn't life on other planets? You don't. And gradual evolution has been proven, and not just proven, but explained logically why it occured if you had been paying attention in class. The Big Bang theory - which I doubt you know anything about whatsoever - has logical reasoning behind it, whereas a 'God' does not)

And no, typing in caps does not mean you pwn. It means you phail.

Carnifex
October 6th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Ok to sv3nns post

"2. and without faith god is nothing- if there is nobody to beilive in him, he is not there, tell me how a god is supposed to exist if nobody beleives in him? " this just isnt true, you are trying to disprove god by defining this quality into him and he just doesnt have it.

The aquanian view of god, and that which is accepted by th church (aqaunian as in, first put forward by thomas aquinas) says that God is completely selfsustaining, he needs nothing external to him to survive, this includes the belief of others. This isnt discworld.

(We can however draw certain other criticisms of god from his qualities as another qulity is emotive: no human emotions. Why would a being who needs nothing but himself to exist, and does not feel emotions such as desire ever create us? it doesnt make sense).

Carnifex
October 6th, 2006, 04:17 PM
And to googleisanoob, feel free to provide any real criticism of evolution right here and I will crush it into dust. This does not include stuff like "how does a ape give birth to a human" as if that happened it would disprove evolution and genetics. Evolution is hugely complex and just because it doesnt make sense to you and you think it sounds far-fetched is merely because you dont have the intelligence to understand it. Things being complicated dont make them not true.

Did you know that time slows down when you get faster? That if you travelled round the world at 100,000 Km Per second for a year and came back, 3 years would have passed on earth (or something around that number). Do you understand that? No its herendously complicated and theorised by physicists, doesnt make it any less true (or probable before we get all solipsist).

an invisible something is way better than a particle of NOTHINGNESS <<< extra fries on that word blew up to create a WHOLE UNIVERSE OF LIGHTYEARS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION, with PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE ON JUST ONE PLANET and then a tadpole came out of the ocean, and became a turtle, then the turtle evolved into a chimpmunk, then a bird, then an ape, then a human being.


When you write it like that, OF COURSE it will sound ridiculous. It sounds like genesis there. And god was like POOF and things came, and he made a woman out of a guys rib yadayadayada. Its not even right what you said. Lets change your became to evolved into over several years so it makes more sense.

The tadpole never evolved into anything, a tadpole is a nubile frog.
I dont think the turtle ever evolved into a chipmunk, and that into bird etc.
Humans did not evolve from apes.

an invisible something is way better than a particle of nothingness? WHAT the fuck does that even mean?? Only one planet capable of supporting life, scienctists speculate that there are billions of planets capable of supporting life and millions that have life.

I mean, goddamit read a book.

Jillamanda
October 7th, 2006, 02:25 AM
an invisible something is way better than a particle of NOTHINGNESS <<< extra fries on that word blew up to create a WHOLE UNIVERSE OF LIGHTYEARS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION, with PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE ON JUST ONE PLANET and then a tadpole came out of the ocean, and became a turtle, then the turtle evolved into a chimpmunk, then a bird, then an ape, then a human being.

It might be beyond YOUR comprehension....

Fallen Hero
October 7th, 2006, 02:39 PM
On that note, lightyears is distance not time. As in how far light can travel in one year.

Xoligy
October 8th, 2006, 09:57 AM
an invisible something is way better than a particle of NOTHINGNESS <<< extra fries on that word blew up to create a WHOLE UNIVERSE OF LIGHTYEARS BEYOND OUR COMPREHENSION, with PLANT AND ANIMAL LIFE ON JUST ONE PLANET and then a tadpole came out of the ocean, and became a turtle, then the turtle evolved into a chimpmunk, then a bird, then an ape, then a human being.

pwnt.

They didn't come from nothingness. Learn how plants grow, then learn how humans grow. It involves energy, which is something that definitely exists, unless you're going to tell me energy is just god farting. Evolution happens when one animal is slightly different, lets say has big nails, which means they can scratch deeper to get nuts, which means they have more chance of survival, and when they breed, their offspring have big nails and they too have more chance of surviving, until other thousands of years ALL of them have big nails etc. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than some genie with a big beard coming down from the sky and sayiong "let there be light!"

wovelscotch
October 24th, 2006, 12:35 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

AaronD
October 24th, 2006, 01:40 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

Nor will you if you do. Here's a hint: God's word mine as well be printed on the back of a cereal box, it wouldn't change the fact that it is artificial, man made, nonexistent, and chock full of contradictions. Next time you have a conversation with Jesus and he replies, be sure to send me that recording. And, no, I am not blind, and it amuses me that you constantly make the assumption that any extraordinary occurrences are due to some conceited, unstable, imaginary being with anger management problems as opposed to science, which insofar has not done a bad job at all explaining these so-called miracles.

Alice Shade
October 24th, 2006, 03:10 AM
Wovelscotch.

There were NO miracles done by God. Only coincidences. There was no pattern to so-called "miracles", which completely negates the idea, that there is any mind behind them.

Going to say, that humans can not understand the designs of god? Sounds good, but there`s one problem. Computer simulation programs show absolutely same rate of miracles, as real life. Or God would create digital miracles for our amusement?

Another argument - going to say, that God created the miracle of world around us? Already addressed that. I think, that you try to credit your boss (God) with work done by something else, so you`d get your petty promotion.
_____________________________________________

Moreover... After being in army, I am absolutely sure, that I would be against the idea of worshipping God, if he existed.
Reason? Simple. For a jealous deity, who punishes his worshippers for straying, he`s far too lax at allowing non-followers to trim his flock.
And I`m NOT even going into how said non-followers are doing that. Let`s just say, that I`ve deemed it a personal honor to eliminate as much of "towelheads", as possible and in any way, starting from second day of my term in Chechnya.
Tolerance be damned, I`m not considering those, who could douse in gasoline medical van with wounded, and light it up, as someone I would dishonor myself to negotiate with.

__________________

P.S. And no, I don`t mean any islamist under term "towelhead". It`s reserved for mojaheeds and other islamic extremists.

Jillamanda
October 24th, 2006, 03:55 AM
Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

So where do you go to hear 'God's word'? You can go almost anywhere and hear people say they're preaching God's word, but you can't go anywhere to hear God actually saying anything. Even if God's word was the only word, when people relay it, it is immediately subject to interpretation, and we all know how many of those are around.

Why should we believe these people? And why doesn't God talk to everyone?

sv3nn
November 15th, 2006, 07:26 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

ok, next time read my post before you reply, he cannot prove he exists, beacuse proof denies faith. faith itself is belief without facts or evidence or proof or whate have you.

AaronD
November 15th, 2006, 08:45 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

ok, next time read my post before you reply, he cannot prove he exists, beacuse proof denies faith. faith itself is belief without facts or evidence or proof or whate have you.

We're arguing Hitchhiker's Guide style here? Well, then let me finish this.

God disappears in a puff of logic.
"That was easy" says man.

ibgeekn4me
November 16th, 2006, 12:55 AM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt


If someone sees a butterfly I can know it is not there, but believe something different.

Fallen Hero
November 16th, 2006, 08:14 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

ok, next time read my post before you reply, he cannot prove he exists, beacuse proof denies faith. faith itself is belief without facts or evidence or proof or whate have you.

That is assuming that god requires faith to exist, but if a god is all-powerful, then he does not need faith to exist, therefore can prove his existence. Sorry.

Kokoba
November 16th, 2006, 10:04 PM
Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.

My name is "circular reasoning." Have we met?

While that might be it all it takes for you to believe in God, as a logical proof it fails and fails hard.

Generally I think ANY proof of God will ultimately fail and fail hard, in the end. That doesn't mean people shouldn't think about their faith or try to defend it. Any proof for the impossibility of God also fails and fails hard as well. In the end it's how you choose to organize and sort out the information you get over a life experience, and well, as long as your organizational method doesn't encourage you to break the rules we have about moral functioning in society (no killing, no stealing, whatever) then it's all good.

Jillamanda
November 16th, 2006, 10:25 PM
You said that you have listen to God's word before you can find Jesus. Where did you go to hear him speak? Or did you read something he's written maybe? Well, don't keep it a secret - let us all in on it. You have millions of potential Christians in the palm of your hand. All you have to do is show them what it was that made you believe in Jesus. Being undeniable proof (as you claim), I can't understand what the hold up is. Surely you'd want as many people as possible to see 'the way, the truth and the light'.

Lead on McDuff...... :D

Passing pastafarian
December 4th, 2006, 09:34 PM
There is no way of proving the existance of any god in the same way there is no way of proving the existance of the tooth fairy. Neither is there disproof for either. The whole HG2G thing is codswollop, if logical in in it's appearance.

<Rant>

Personally I do not want to "find" jesus because he associates with a bully (God) and hides behind rumours that he was a good guy etc. etc.

What gives God the right to claim the monopoly on faith?

</Rant>

The World is a beautiful place. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just allow each other to follow our own private religion without all this aggressive evangelising malarky that you get on street corners and "spoof" religion forums. None of them have any proof either way, anyway.

AaronD
December 4th, 2006, 10:56 PM
The whole HG2G thing is codswollop, if logical in in it's appearance.

The reason the whole Hitchhiker's proof is so appealing is because it's codswallop, because of its illogical appearance, and yet makes sense in a parodoxical, semi-logical way.

Passing pastafarian
December 5th, 2006, 11:56 AM
Agreed.

But just because it is appealing does not mean it is proof.

That is all I am saying.

jon_hill987
December 5th, 2006, 01:09 PM
Personally I do not want to "find" jesus because he associates with a bully (God) and hides behind rumours that he was a good guy

He he, got kicked off inpersuitofgod.org for saying something similar to that.

They told me that I was a fool for not believing and that "when Jesus returned I would bow before him".

I said I would not bow to any god to which they replied that "I would not have a choice in the matter".

I said "so your god is the type to force people to worship him? that doesn't sound divine, in fact it sounds evil. I also asked why is their god so desperate for worshippers that he will send people to hell for not believing, does he get some sort of ego trip off it?

needless to say they were no impressed.

AaronD
December 6th, 2006, 03:27 AM
Agreed.

But just because it is appealing does not mean it is proof.

That is all I am saying.

I don't think of it as proof, just as a good joke to bring up from time to time.

Passing pastafarian
December 11th, 2006, 01:54 PM
Oops, I killed the thread, sorry. I guess we can decide that yours is not proof against a christian god, but does anyone else have one?

hanensens
May 11th, 2007, 08:07 AM
does know one understand that a christian God does exist?!?
miricals happen, but people does just not accept it...

Serenstar
May 11th, 2007, 11:25 AM
does know one understand that a christian God does exist?!?
miricals happen, but people does just not accept it...

Could you possible explain said miracles?

Give examples etc.?

AaronD
May 11th, 2007, 08:22 PM
And even if miricles did happen, how would that prove that a Christian god exists and not a Hindu god or a Roman god?

Serenstar
May 12th, 2007, 01:22 AM
And even if miricles did happen, how would that prove that a Christian god exists and not a Hindu god or a Roman god?

Or an Egyptian deity, a Celtic deity, an African deity, an Aboriginal deity, a Native American deity, an Oriental deity or another of of the thousands of deities there are.

Or, another thought, maybe it could be Satan! :icon_twisted:

Alice Shade
May 12th, 2007, 07:10 AM
Miracles do not happen, because some deity arranged them.

The mere name would be a dead-on give-away, no?

Miracle - aka, something completely unexpected. Influence of God, you say? Let`s see....

1) It`s a miracle. Therefore, it happens extremely rare and always - without any hints as to how that occured.

2) It`s a miracle. Therefore, it happens to absolutely random Joes and Jills, not to chosen righteous zealots of christianity.

Now let`s sum up those. It looks like completely random lucky encounters are the undisputable proof of God... Wait, what?

_______________________________________________________________

There are NO miracles, which give any proof to God`s existance. Moreso, if one were to investigate those miracles without crediting God for them per default, rational explanation would be present in every single one of them.

Coincidentally, as soon as miracles are explained, people immediately lose all fervor in touting them on. Why, that`s the question? If you fall off the roof, and get out without a scratch, does it really matters, what saved you - divine intervention or handy branch?

Digs
May 13th, 2007, 01:59 AM
ITT thread trollin' against organised religion?

I don't get why Christians call their magic miracles. I mean, it's clearly magic. Ways of manipulating the world that we don't understand are magic, plain an' simple.

Alice Shade
May 13th, 2007, 03:14 AM
Because, Digs, they are mortally afraid, that someone else will manipulate the world without their agreement or worse, somehow slighting them.

Therefore, they oppose any attempt at such, be it "real magic" or simply something rational which they can`t understand.

But since they somehow realise, that those things could`ve theoretically helped their lives and slighted those whom they don`t like - so they attribute all such acts to a God, coming from simple stipulation, that God would not slight his own followers.

jon_hill987
May 13th, 2007, 01:20 PM
On the subject of miracles:

When someone is saved from certain death by a strange concatenation of circumstances, they say that's a miracle. But of course if someone is killed by a freak chain of events - the oil spilled just there, the safety fence broken just there - that must also be a miracle. Just because it's not nice doesn't mean it's not miraculous.

Serenstar
May 13th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Magick (or magic. The "k" is an Aleister Crowley thing)

"the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change in the world around you and the world within you. It is important to remember that magick is neutral, it is neither good or bad... only our intentions are good or bad. Magick will only take the path of least resistance."

"The use of natural energies within ourselves and the world around us to effect a physical change in a condition or life situation. Spelled with a "k" to differentiate it from stage magic."

Kokoba
May 13th, 2007, 07:23 PM
And also because Crowley liked to futz about with Qaballah (or however you want to spell it), despite being something of an anti-semite, and the numerical meaning of "magick" (or maybe just the six-lettered-ness, or both) suited him much better than "magic."

Fun fact: One time, the fortune in my fotune cookie was "Love is the law, love under will."

Digs
May 14th, 2007, 12:18 AM
"the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change in the world around you and the world within you. It is important to remember that magick is neutral, it is neither good or bad... only our intentions are good or bad. Magick will only take the path of least resistance."

"The use of natural energies within ourselves and the world around us to effect a physical change in a condition or life situation. Spelled with a "k" to differentiate it from stage magic."

Not to sound dismissive or anything, but I don't necessarily buy into Black Bob Crowley as being an entirely accurate source of information. That's his definition, and Thelema's, but I'm not Thelemic. Based on the information in the world about what magic theoretically is and what magic theoretically does, I've made a working definition.

Bob and I don't necessarily agree, I suppose, hee hee.

Fallen Hero
May 14th, 2007, 03:06 PM
Magick (or magic. The "k" is an Aleister Crowley thing)

"the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change in the world around you and the world within you. It is important to remember that magick is neutral, it is neither good or bad... only our intentions are good or bad. Magick will only take the path of least resistance."

"The use of natural energies within ourselves and the world around us to effect a physical change in a condition or life situation. Spelled with a "k" to differentiate it from stage magic."

Magik/Magic/Magick - I don't care how the word is spelled, magic/(k) is what you think of it. It is not based on any special spelling.

Trumple
May 31st, 2007, 05:03 PM
i have to laugh at all the die hard christains there are out here. they think they are totally right. but u have to stop and think guys. if u say that we are going to hell for this, then you go agianst one of the very fundamentals for your religion. judging people. just by stating that we are going to hell u have judged somebody. congrats on self confliction

My god. My google god i mean. I agree with you so strongly its scary. How can there be a god? where did he come from eh? AND if he made light on like the 6th day, did he make the rest of the world in the dark? I mean, comon. And how is he supposed to answer all your prayers? It dosent make sence. All those people who do 'radical' stuff for god, your wasting your time. Why not have a great time on earth instead of spending most of your time doing things for god?! God apparently gave us 'FREE WILL' dont you christians who belive in god understand? do what you want!! you were acidentaly given two opposing orders, what would you do? take the best one!!!!!

dajumbles
June 2nd, 2007, 11:26 PM
i have logical proof the the Christian god DOES NOT EXIST!

God cannot prove he exists, for proof denies faith, and without faith god is nothing. but by the christian way, god creates humans, and well everything. so we prove he exists, therefore he doesnt

Proof doesn't deny faith as much as affirms it in my opinion.

"The Heavens declare the glory of God, the skies proclaim the work of his hands." - Psalm 19:1

You see, even the Bible says that creation proves God's existence.

Alice Shade
June 2nd, 2007, 11:35 PM
Similarly, I can say that the existance of any information proves Google is Goddess.

There is no clear cause->effect line between the existance and god.

dajumbles
June 2nd, 2007, 11:55 PM
Well information has, and always will be, even before google.

And if you look at the chemical and biological life processes, and see how complicated they truly are, then it is very hard to deny that anything but a divine being created it.

That's my opinion of course.

Imagine walking into a room that no one else has ever been in, and on the floor is a quarter set up perfectly on it's thin edge, wouldn't you assume someone put it there?

Alice Shade
June 3rd, 2007, 12:07 AM
One quarter? If there`d be ONE SINGLE standing on the edge, I`d look for joker who balanced it.

But if I walk into room (REEEEAL big one), which had cubic mile dencely-packed quarters dropped in, and shaken around like maraca for a couple aeons, I will NOT be surprised by a quarter standing on the edge. There`s probably much more then one such.

Iduna
June 3rd, 2007, 12:19 AM
Isn't that from Hitchhikers guide?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4iIo1tUtW0&mode=related&search=

Love the logic!!! :D

Vexx
June 3rd, 2007, 12:24 AM
Just gonna say....
Believers in God, no matter what religion, usually base their 'proof' in opinions and personal thoughts. Example would be what dajumbles said...

And if you look at the chemical and biological life processes, and see how complicated they truly are, then it is very hard to deny that anything but a divine being created it.

That's my opinion of course.

I'm not saying that athiests don't do this either, but they also use more proven facts....Science, in other words.
But of course....We can't prove God doesn't exsist. But they can't prove he does. It's all in faith...another thing God-followers hide behind. Let me say this:
If I had faith that dancing nematoads will carry me away in my sleep and leave me on a stump to be fed to a giant spider when it's my time to die, what is your place to say 'no'? It's faith!

Alice Shade
June 3rd, 2007, 12:41 AM
Actually...

I can prove, that Abrahamic gods don`t exist - they are an embodiment of contradiction.

There are three points here:

1) All Abrahamic gods are declared to be omnipotent.

2) All Abrahamic gods grant the veracity of respective holy texts.

3) All Abrahamic gods have documented unfullfilled prophecies/promises in the very same holy texts.

And thus, we arrive to contradiction - omnipotent being promises something, guarantees veracity of promise and then this something does not happens.

So, no matter how you turn it, one or several conditions can`t be fullfilled.


Thus, a conclusion follows - God, as defined per any specific Abrahamic religion, which is in use, does not exists due to inherent controversion.

________________________________________________________________

Note, that this proof has nothing to do with Buddhism, for example - it is stipulated, that Buddha does NOT affects the world, nor promises anything, therefore Buddha has no contradiction, and could very well exist within it`s definition.

Vexx
June 3rd, 2007, 12:50 AM
Actually, Buddha isn't percieved as a god and actually told everyone he is not to be worshipped as such. He's just someone who brought forth the religion and belief.
Which is why i love him. :3

Either way....I believe that religion is just something humans created so they won't be so afraid of death. I mean....It's easier to die when you think something's waiting for you than thinking that that's the end.

dajumbles
June 3rd, 2007, 12:53 AM
Actually...

I can prove, that Abrahamic gods don`t exist - they are an embodiment of contradiction.

There are three points here:

1) All Abrahamic gods are declared to be omnipotent.

2) All Abrahamic gods grant the veracity of respective holy texts.

3) All Abrahamic gods have documented unfullfilled prophecies/promises in the very same holy texts.

And thus, we arrive to contradiction - omnipotent being promises something, guarantees veracity of promise and then this something does not happens.

So, no matter how you turn it, one or several conditions can`t be fullfilled.


Thus, a conclusion follows - God, as defined per any specific Abrahamic religion, which is in use, does not exists due to inherent controversion.

________________________________________________________________

Note, that this proof has nothing to do with Buddhism, for example - it is stipulated, that Buddha does NOT affects the world, nor promises anything, therefore Buddha has no contradiction, and could very well exist within it`s definition.

What specific prophesies would those be?

Jesus fulfilled all old testement prohphesies regarding the Mesiah, the end times prophesies haven't happened yet, because it isn't quite time yet, no one knows the time of Christ's second coming.

Alice Shade
June 3rd, 2007, 01:02 AM
Too long a list to quote. Here, take a peek yourself.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

dajumbles
June 3rd, 2007, 02:15 PM
Too long a list to quote. Here, take a peek yourself.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

Apparently a lot of those people have not ever read the Bible, they are taking verses out of context.

Adam did die after eating the fruit, not literally but spiritually, all men are spirutally dead unless they accept Christ.

Avts 7:5 says, (if you actually read the chapter) that Abraham was not given the land, but Go promised it to him before he had a son, and they did take possession of it.

Those are just a few that I saw, but I am sure I can come up with a rebuttle to all of them.

Digs
June 3rd, 2007, 07:26 PM
I can work up a rational figurative explanation to anything at all.

Vexx
June 3rd, 2007, 09:21 PM
One other thing I'd like to say....God or not, I wouldn't want to worship a guy who allow children to die every single day, people killing each other, wars, so on and so forth.
god sounds like a real ass...

As for the whole 'well, you make your own choices!' part of the argument...Why do you say that God helped you through something when you so obviously did it yourself? Really. Doesn't look like God takes much care of his pet people, letting them run around on their own!

Alice Shade
June 3rd, 2007, 09:52 PM
Actually, they are not out of context. You can click on each one, and get into the context, and see notes on all of them. A lot of them spans more then one verse.

On a side note, "spiritual death" is a cop-out, and you know it as well as we do. There is NO inherent difference between religious and non-religious people.

The only real difference is that non-religious people take full responcibility for any "evil" actions they cause, while religious ones justify it with God`s commandment.

dajumbles
June 4th, 2007, 01:08 AM
Actually, they are not out of context. You can click on each one, and get into the context, and see notes on all of them. A lot of them spans more then one verse.

On a side note, "spiritual death" is a cop-out, and you know it as well as we do. There is NO inherent difference between religious and non-religious people.

The only real difference is that non-religious people take full responcibility for any "evil" actions they cause, while religious ones justify it with God`s commandment.

What do you mean by "justify" evil with God's commandments, that doesn't make sense to me. But in my view, it takes a real man to fess up to his wrongdoings and God has not part in evil.

The other difference is where we are going after death... And no I dont mean cremation/burial!

Vexx: So you'd rather worship a fat (albeit happy) guy?

God doesn't allows things to happen, but He can't take any blame for it at all, it is man's sinfulness that does it. Would you rather have free will or have a god who controls everything you do, and you are just a spectator.

Alice Shade
June 4th, 2007, 01:13 AM
Spanish Inquisition were real whizzes in torturing in the name of God, if you want the most obvious example.

Similarly, I`ll quote a very familiar scene - puritan families casting out young girls, who for some reason became pregnant (Note, that even if it was outright rape, it "does not counts", child is still a sin, and sinner must be cast out.)

________________________________________________________________

As for the god giving "Free Will", it`s bullshit. If God is truly omniscient, as declared, he`d know beforehand, that Adam and Eve would commit a sin. So he intentionally gave them the opportunity and willfully encouraged them to do so via his creation - snake.

In law practice, this is called "masterminding a crime".

Vexx
June 4th, 2007, 01:18 AM
Vexx: So you'd rather worship a fat (albeit happy) guy?

God doesn't allows things to happen, but He can't take any blame for it at all, it is man's sinfulness that does it. Would you rather have free will or have a god who controls everything you do, and you are just a spectator.

I don't worship Buddha. I simply follow what he has laid down. Like I've stated before, he isn't a God and has asked not to be worshipped as such. (How do you know God isn't fat? =O )

If God knows everything and anything, he already knows the past, present, and future. Since he knows the future, he knows what you're going to do, which means he knows what choices you're gonna make. So....How do you know what you're doing is of your own free will? Even if he doesn't control everything, he should be able to control enough things to not make this world the way it is.

Digs
June 4th, 2007, 05:58 PM
As for the god giving "Free Will", it`s bullshit. If God is truly omniscient, as declared, he`d know beforehand, that Adam and Eve would commit a sin. So he intentionally gave them the opportunity and willfully encouraged them to do so via his creation - snake.

In law practice, this is called "masterminding a crime".

The official line goes that God has that power but doesn't look.

ellf
June 4th, 2007, 06:37 PM
What makes me sad is that so many fundamentalists are turning people away from Christianity by acting the way that they do. Isn't the saying that you catch more flies with honey?

Anyway, as for the Inquisition, well they were asses. They did not act with the approval of the Church half the time.

Vexx
June 4th, 2007, 06:45 PM
It makes me sad that so many people have wars over such arguments.

Really...Religion is something you need to figure out yourself. If you don't like something, you don't have to follow it. Simple, no?
You shouldn't push your beliefs on others. It is okay to explain your views and why you think that way, but you shouldn't try to make another change their views. This goes for everyone, athiests and thiests combined.

As for me....I long since gave up on trying to find answers from God. I then searched through many other religions that don't worship any suprime being and found that Buddhism made most sence to me.
It's like trying on clothes. Keep switching around untill you find one that fits!

ellf
June 4th, 2007, 06:48 PM
The official line goes that God has that power but doesn't look.

It makes me sad that so many people have wars over such arguments.

Really...Religion is something you need to figure out yourself. If you don't like something, you don't have to follow it. Simple, no?
You shouldn't push your beliefs on others. It is okay to explain your views and why you think that way, but you shouldn't try to make another change their views. This goes for everyone, athiests and thiests combined.

As for me....I long since gave up on trying to find answers from God. I then searched through many other religions that don't worship any suprime being and found that Buddhism made most sence to me.
It's like trying on clothes. Keep switching around untill you find one that fits!


I understand your line of thinking, and agree to a point. I'm sorry that you never did find answers from God, but everyone has their own path. This site alone proves that. My only thing with the choosing a religion is just make sure you aren't hurting yourself or others with it.

Wallis89
June 4th, 2007, 08:14 PM
My only thing with the choosing a religion is just make sure you aren't hurting yourself or others with it.

I don't even have a religion I just live by one of the 10 commandments. Treat others as you would like to be treated. If all humans lived by that this planet would be quite nice.

Alice Shade
June 4th, 2007, 10:27 PM
Problem with religion is, that... Well, uh, that it`s religion.

Any religion, per ce, has a set of rigid dogmas at it`s base, and it more or less xenophobic towards anyone, who does not fullfills those dogmas.

Note, that I`m NOT talking about moral norms here. On the contrary. More of... About reasons to make "moral" choices.

Putting it very simply - satanist (like me) and evangelist (like Dajumbles) might have entirely different reasoning for not killing those who vex them. However, the end result is the very same - neither becomes serial killer.

Problem with religion is that it gives TOO much thought about reasoning, and too little thought about the real action/outcome.

________________________________________________________________

This, is what makes religions look unpleasant. The rigidness of required reasoning more often then not prevents religious people from doing something genuinely good/useful, and instead, provokes them into bigoted responces about how ungodly it is, or worse yet - makes them fake the effort, and sabotage the whole issue.

PotatoeOfDoom
June 5th, 2007, 07:50 AM
Fighting about religion is basicly fighting over whos imaginary friend is better:D

Vexx
June 5th, 2007, 03:58 PM
Fighting about religion is basicly fighting over whos imaginary friend is better:D

My imaginary friend can kick your imaginary friend's arse. =P

dajumbles
June 5th, 2007, 04:02 PM
Problem with religion is, that... Well, uh, that it`s religion.

Any religion, per ce, has a set of rigid dogmas at it`s base, and it more or less xenophobic towards anyone, who does not fullfills those dogmas.

Note, that I`m NOT talking about moral norms here. On the contrary. More of... About reasons to make "moral" choices.

Putting it very simply - satanist (like me) and evangelist (like Dajumbles) might have entirely different reasoning for not killing those who vex them. However, the end result is the very same - neither becomes serial killer.

Problem with religion is that it gives TOO much thought about reasoning, and too little thought about the real action/outcome.


Well haven't you noticed? Almost all religions have some form of afterlife, so the way I see it, they look at the outcome more than you!

PotatoeOfDoom
June 6th, 2007, 12:14 AM
My imaginary friend can kick your imaginary friend's arse. =P

and what if my imaginary friend is god hmm?

Vexx
June 6th, 2007, 12:16 AM
and what if my imaginary friend is god hmm?

D: But.....but he's my imaginary friend!
THAT WHORE!

PotatoeOfDoom
June 6th, 2007, 12:17 AM
or better yet, what if my imaginary friend is Google's imaginary advocate?

PotatoeOfDoom
June 6th, 2007, 12:17 AM
D: But.....but he's my imaginary friend!
THAT WHORE!

HAHAHA

Alice Shade
June 6th, 2007, 04:56 AM
Well haven't you noticed? Almost all religions have some form of afterlife, so the way I see it, they look at the outcome more than you!

Excuse me?

They all state - "Hey, UNLESS you do EXACTLY like I say, you`ll suffer! Hell, if you`ll think not like me, you`ll suffer."

I ask you again - what`s the difference?

Does it really matters, if you do good out of kindness of heart or because of god`s commandment?

The way I see it, first kind is DEFINITELY better, then second.

Trumple
June 21st, 2007, 05:21 PM
Who said God cannot proove he exists? Are you blind to all the miricals and wonders he has done? You can't find Jesus untill you start listing to Gods word.


Miracles? What miracles! We see these coincidences as miracles, just because they have no apparent explanation. Is that right? So all we have to turn to is that god made them happen. What if i said I made them happen, then someone came along and wrote a big boring book about me...Then what? huh? would I be the new god? NO! Coz im really here, and god isnt, you only belive in things you dont see because you think that god has to be so 'magic'. Well heres the truth. I AM GOD.....or not.

I don't even have a religion I just live by one of the 10 commandments. Treat others as you would like to be treated. If all humans lived by that this planet would be quite nice.

what if ur an emo, and wanted to die? 'nuff said...

Alice Shade
June 21st, 2007, 05:25 PM
I have no doubt, that if you wanted to be an emo, sooner or later (though, probably sooner) someone definitely would be more then willing to honor your wish and spare you from the continuation of your pointless existance.

PotatoeOfDoom
June 22nd, 2007, 03:11 AM
Hey, not ALL emos are suicidal!!
While that is the common stereotype, most emos are just emo-tional.
and even if they cut, it's been proven that cutting can release endorphins (sp?)

Alice Shade
June 22nd, 2007, 03:15 AM
It`s been proven, that emos are among the most annoying creatures ever.

Because they can`t shut up about their damn emotions!

I don`t give a shit about how good they feel about new silk scarf, how moody their newest record is, and how sad it is, that their mom won`t spring for another stylish indie cargo pants.

Emos should be put through drill camp.

-AoG-Kero
June 22nd, 2007, 03:31 AM
It`s been proven, that emos are among the most annoying creatures ever.

Because they can`t shut up about their damn emotions!

I don`t give a shit about how good they feel about new silk scarf, how moody their newest record is, and how sad it is, that their mom won`t spring for another stylish indie cargo pants.

Emos should be put through drill camp.

lol thats a bit harsh now...
they should just have a no-emotional talking law for public areas

Alice Shade
June 22nd, 2007, 11:00 AM
Law? As in civil order specifically for emos?

Are you kidding me? You`d better be.

Last thing ANYONE needs is to give emos any real reason to claim they are persecuted. We`ll NEVER hear the end of their innecant bitching and moaning, as they will wallow in the emotional masochism of persecution. In a way, it`s any emo`s wet dream.

Vexx
June 22nd, 2007, 02:49 PM
I'd like to let you know that there's the stereotypical 'emo', which is the ones with the sweatervests and whine and cut and whatnot...
Then there's 'emotional' emos, which are the decent emos.
My mother is bipolar, which makes her very emotional and emo, yet she doesn't cut herself or complain about it. Actually, she bitches at anyone who whines about being bipolar and tells them to take some meds.

So....Don't go judging all 'emos' so harshly plzkthx.

-AoG-Kero
June 22nd, 2007, 05:37 PM
i dont think we were talking about bipolar people as much as those teens who are all hopped up on hormones, and have so perfect lives, that they have to make up imaginary reasons to complain about

Vexx
June 22nd, 2007, 05:39 PM
i dont think we were talking about bipolar people as much as those teens who are all hopped up on hormones, and have so perfect lives, that they have to make up imaginary reasons to complain about

Then that's the stereotypical emo. I'm just stating that there's more than one type of emo, so don't talk about it as if they're all the same.

-AoG-Kero
June 22nd, 2007, 05:45 PM
well i know there are other kinds of emo, but are bipolar people really considered to be part of the term "emo"?

Vexx
June 22nd, 2007, 05:47 PM
bipolar, clinically depressed, etc etc. In fact, in my school, whenever someone mentions 'emo', people usually ask if they mean bipolar or something else.

-AoG-Kero
June 22nd, 2007, 05:49 PM
huh, it must mean different things in different areas...

Trumple
June 27th, 2007, 07:59 PM
I hate it when emos look for sympath E.G: oh yeah, im gona go cut now...so err...cya..I might die....woo....erm...emotional....yeah.....the last burning candle in the pit of flames...yeah....the death of the bumble bee....apathetic






I wish my grass was emo...so it would cut itself!

-AoG-Kero
June 28th, 2007, 03:31 AM
I wish my grass was emo...so it would cut itself!

dont we all?

Lord_Jereth
July 4th, 2007, 10:17 PM
Preamble: I grew up being force fed xtianism by my bi-polar (with accompanying psychosis and religious fervor) and abusive mother and step father. I didn't have a choice, I was forced to 'believe' or at least profess that I did. At the age of 13 I started questioning the validity of this religion (in secret, mind you) but for most of my life I had a little demon in the back of my head telling me constantly, "you're going to hell for that!" One day in my 20s an argument hit me out of the blue that I couldn't refute with my xtian pap addled inner monologue. It shut the demon up for good and released me from the chains of xtian oppression forever. I share it with you now in the hopes that others might be able to be freed, also. Use it as you will ...

The following argument goes by several names - The argument of the existence of a Evil, Providence and the Problem of Evil and the argument against an omniscient, all loving god - as well as others. I am far from the first person to come up with this argument for its original form is probably best known as The Epicurial Paradox or Riddle (Epicurus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus); 341 BC, Samos - 270 BC, Athens) but for me, it was a revelation when it hit me without foreknowledge that it was already a well-established philosophical argument.

Verily,

Pre-condition: YHWH/Jahowa/(I AM)/God - henceforth labeled "YJG"

Condition: Agreed upon definition and logical extrapolation.

Definition: YJG is an omniscient, omnipotent and all-loving (omnibenevolent) deity.

Postulate: Said entity can not exist within the framework of said definition as it creates a paradox as omniscience and all-loving are mutually exclusive properties.

Webster's Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sourceid=Mozilla-search&va=Omniscient) describes the word 'omniscient' with the following definition:


omniscient

Main Entry: omĚniĚscient
Pronunciation: -sh&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: New Latin omniscient-, omnisciens, back-formation from Medieval Latin omniscientia

1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

- omĚniĚscientĚly adverb

Further, Webster's (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/loving) describes love (loving) with the following definition:

love

Main Entry: love
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): loved; lovĚing
transitive verb
1 : to hold dear : CHERISH
2 a : to feel a lover's passion, devotion, or tenderness for b (1) : CARESS (2) : to fondle amorously (3) : to copulate with
3 : to like or desire actively : take pleasure in <loved to play the violin>
4 : to thrive in <the rose loves sunlight>
intransitive verb : to feel affection or experience desire

Extrapolation:

YJG Is omniscient. Hence, (S)He knows everything that has ever happened, is happening now and ever will happen. Further, (S)HE is omnipotent, i.e. is so powerful as to be able to do ANYTHING, without exception.

According to Genesis said deity/entity creates the universe and everything in it including man because (paraphrasing) (S)He is lonely/bored (/paraphrasing). But, before this (S)He creates angels as servants including one who is the most beautiful, smart and special angel of all, Lucifer, A.K.A 'The Morning Star'. Because (S)he is omniscient, YJG had to know that some time in the future Lucifer would attempt a coup d'etat, be defeated and thrown to earth to become the most evil of beings and scourge of mankind, YJG's (supposedly) greatest achievement/creation, and did nothing to stop it or change the outcome. In effect, YJG is an accomplice at best and a maniacal megalomaniac at worst due to the fact that foreknowledge without action to prevent this occasion constitutes complicity. Logical extrapolation shows that (S)He, by inaction, condones on a continual basis, every act of evil; hate, terrorism, abuse, greed, murder, torture, racism, rape, molestation, etc. ad nauseum.

Summation: It follows that either YJG wanted this all to be as it is or (S)He is voluntarily/involuntarily powerless to stop it.

Powerlessness is the antithesis of omnipotence
Condoning evil is the antithesis of ominibonevolence

Conclusion: YJG can not be both omnipotent/omniscient and omnibonevolent. (S)He must be one or the other, or neither. Either the agreed upon definition is incorrect or said deity/entity does not, in fact, exist.


The Riddle of Epicurus
(Earliest known statement of the Problem of Evil)
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?


Further reading (Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil)

:icon_cool: LJ

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 02:31 AM
I`ve quoted Epicurus a couple of times ago for christians.

The best they came up against was the old - "God works in mysterious ways." and "God gives you place in heaven."

Presumably, omnibenevolence of God is expressed as omnibenevolence towars all christians (and noone else), in form of promised eternal happy existance.

Though, I`m more then a little curious as to what can be done in heaven for such bliss.

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 02:51 AM
Though, I`m more then a little curious as to what can be done in heaven for such bliss.

that's something I've asked many Christians in my life and none of them have an answer!
What exactly do you do in heaven? "Well, you get to sit by the side of God!" And then what? Arm wrestle 'im or something?
God must be pretty damn huge if all people who go there can sit by his side and not crowd...

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 02:56 AM
Wouldn`t it be boring - sit by the side of God for eternity?

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 02:58 AM
well, i suppose if he had something good to talk about, it wouldn't be too terribly bad. If he didn't, it would get awkward.
"so....hows godly powers?" "good." ".....it always this nice out here?" "Yup." "....." "......"

Lord_Jereth
July 5th, 2007, 03:06 AM
I`ve quoted Epicurus a couple of times ago for christians.

The best they came up against was the old - "God works in mysterious ways." and "God gives you place in heaven."

Presumably, omnibenevolence of God is expressed as omnibenevolence towars all christians (and noone else), in form of promised eternal happy existance.

Though, I`m more then a little curious as to what can be done in heaven for such bliss.

Natural Man argument. *nods* Pretty sad when the only refutation they can come up with is from the point of view of ignorance, i.e. God is unfathomable. Sort of like saying, "I can't prove he doesn't exist so therefore he must exist."

Sad.

:icon_cool: LJ

Lord_Jereth
July 5th, 2007, 03:08 AM
well, i suppose if he had something good to talk about, it wouldn't be too terribly bad. If he didn't, it would get awkward.
"so....hows godly powers?" "good." ".....it always this nice out here?" "Yup." "....." "......"

Personally, I love the bit about "riches in heaven." So, what, there's a heavenly Walmart that I'm gonna be able to spend all these riches in?

:icon_cool: LJ

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 03:11 AM
wouldn't 'riches in heaven' contradict the whole 'Greed' thing? Really?
I'm guessing you get to do all things in heaven that you'd normally get to go to hell for down on earth. Odd...

Lord_Jereth
July 5th, 2007, 03:17 AM
Interesting point ...

*chuckles*

:icon_cool: LJ

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 03:41 AM
Actually...

From what I could`ve gathered from talking to christians, the most refined idea of heaven suggests, that heaven is not a place, per ce, but rather a state of mind. A kind of looped extasy cycle.

Similarly, riches in heaven is supposed to be representing the diversity of pleasant sensations for those who can reach heaven.

But once again, most christians get frustrated at that query, and insinuate, that heaven (once again) can not be comprehended by those, who does not believes.

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 03:43 AM
Well, whenever someone says that I wouldn't understand because I don't believe, I just say they haven't even been there yet so how would they understand anyway...

If anything, if they're all such die-hard believers in the bible, they're probably all going to hell anyhow. Ever read Dante's Inferno? Fun stuff there, fun stuff....

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 03:49 AM
Read it, loved it.

According to it, I`m a natural-born for seventh circle of hell.

Divine Comedy is very enlightening... In a humorous way. ^_^

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 03:52 AM
I reccomended it to all my christian friends. They now hate me to a certain level.
According to it along with one of those weird "What level of hell do you belong in?" quizzes, I belong in the level for Rage, sloth and gluttony close behind....
Sadly, i couldn't read all of the devine comedy, I had to return it to the library...

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 03:58 AM
Gah. Buy it. Or I can probably dig up electronic version and email it to you, if it comes to that.

Vexx
July 5th, 2007, 04:03 AM
I eventually will....Just recently baught my complete collection of Edger A. Poe works, so I don't exactly have the money for it for the moment...

Alice Shade
July 5th, 2007, 04:16 AM
I usually check online libraries first off.

A lot of classic works are public domain by now, and they get published in it`s entirety online for free.

Digs
July 5th, 2007, 01:57 PM
See also Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page).