Free will / All-knowing God - one has to go

[GeoffBoulton]

The usual cop out when asked why God doesn't show himself, answer our prayers, etc. Is that if God did do these things it would take away our free will. So can we show that free will and an all-knowing God are mutually exclusive? I read an article on the net a while ago that claims you can. Can't remember the page, sorry.

The argument goes like this:

If God knows everything then he also knows everything about the past, the present and the future. If he knows everything about the future then he must also know every decision you will make throughout your life.

Say you are faced with a decision, you are at a crossroads and you can turn left or you can turn right. God already knows you will turn left.

If you actually do turn left then you are just fulfilling what God already knew would happen. You didn't really have any free will or ability to independently make a choice you are just following a pre-determined path, your already known future.

If however you really do have free choice and you decide to turn right instead of left then God was wrong and he can't be all-knowing.

The same reasoning applies to every decision you make throughout your life so the summary is that you are either just following your pre-destined path through life with no real free will or choice about the decisions you make or God can't be all-knowing.

Seems fairly logical to me, can anyone pick holes in it? ;)

[Nameless]

*agrees*

Not only that, but God himself created us knowing and such that we would take the left road, so he couldn't possible create us with freewill.

Unless...

*Puts on devil suit*

God could have the power to know everything by during the creation of people chose not to know into the future. Since he is all powerful he can use his all powerfulness to block himself temporarily from his omniscience.

*Takes off devil suit.*

Which is, of course, a load of crap, but it is one way of looking at it from a theistic perspective.

EDIT: And it's an extra-fun argument because it subsequently ruins the theists defense regarding the Problem of Evil.

[Alice Shade]

Well...

From Christian side, it`s possible to argue, that God only communicates with true believers, and while he could be bothered to go down, and talk to Moses, for example, he simply doesn`t need to go down to every single schmoe to point them in right direction - especially, if he already knows, that they will go this way irregardless.

[Erasmus]

Just because God already knows that you will take the left course does not mean you didn't make the decision to turn left yourself.

He may have known that your own freewill would cause you to turn left, but that doesn't mean your freewill is hampered at all; just predicted.

And let us not forget that God may know the future, and if, like at a crossroad, there are two alternative futures, He would know both. After all, if the future is NOT fixed, there is no way He could know it, and it is not a flaw on his omniscience not to.

Interestingly, according to science, both, and indeed all, possibilities are played out in the 5th dimension.

[GeoffBoulton]

Since he is all powerful he can use his all powerfulness to block himself temporarily from his omniscience.

But even if he himself 'chooses' not to know something he is still not all-knowing. ;)

From Christian side, it`s possible to argue, that God only communicates with true believers...

God doesn't have to communicate his knowledge to anyone for you to still make the 'wrong' choice. Of course, WE wouldn't then know we had made the wrong choice and we couldn't therefore prove that God was wrong and that he wasn't all-knowing. It still doesn't change the fact though that, logically, unless we take our pre-known/pre-destined path we would prove that God isn't all knowing.

Maybe that's why God doesn't communicate with us, he doesn't want us to know that he isn't all-knowing ;)

Funnily enough, theists usually claim everything 'is all part of God's plan', which implies we are following a pre-ordained destiny, but then still insist they have 'free will' ;)

[Alice Shade]

Supposedly, God should know the FIXED future, aka, whatever free will action person will take, it was still "will of God", that he/she`d do it.

So if you looked on left and right paths, and decided to go on either, then it was God`s scheme to make you go by it, no matter, which one you take - as there is no way to return, and re-choose. (And if is, then it`s still "God`s will", whatever you choose.)

[GeoffBoulton]

After all, if the future is NOT fixed, there is no way He could know it, and it is not a flaw on his omniscience not to.

If there is something God can't know then he can't be omniscient. Whether it is possible to know something or not is irrelevant, it is still something he doesn't know. By your own argument, if the future is not fixed, then God can't be omniscient.

He may have known that your own freewill would cause you to turn left, but that doesn't mean your freewill is hampered at all; just predicted.

Again, whether you made the decision or not, the decision you made was pre-ordained, it would happen whatever you did. This is not free will.

[Erasmus]

After all, if the future is NOT fixed, there is no way He could know it, and it is not a flaw on his omniscience not to.

If there is something God can't know then he can't be omniscient. Whether it is possible to know something or not is irrelevant, it is still something he doesn't know. By your own argument, if the future is not fixed, then God can't be omniscient.

But, if He knows every decision you could ever make, and every possible result of this decision, and every decision it leads to, to the end of time; if He, in short, knows the sum of all possibility in its almost infinity complexity till possibility itself ends, what is there He does not know?

Surely that is the most complete omniscience imaginable.

He may have known that your own freewill would cause you to turn left, but that doesn't mean your freewill is hampered at all; just predicted.

Again, whether you made the decision or not, the decision you made was pre-ordained, it would happen whatever you did. This is not free will.

It's still free will.

To create an analogy:

I have a friend, who we shall name James. I know James very well. In fact I know him completely. I have learnt, through observation, to predict his actions with 100% accuracy. When he is faced with a problem I can tell the answer he will come up with becuse I know him so well, and I can tell what decision he will make at any given time.

So, one day we come to a crossroads. I immediately predict that James will turn left. He does so. Have I now robbed him of free will? By predicting his actions have I caused them to be? No. It's still his decision, regardless of how accurately I predicted he'd make it.

Is this not so with God (should he exist)? By predicting your actions he does not deny you free will. You choose where to go, He just knows what you will choose.

[GeoffBoulton]

Surely that is the most complete omniscience imaginable.

Don't know what your point is, this is what I was answering:

After all, if the future is NOT fixed, there is no way He could know it, and it is not a flaw on his omniscience not to.

You are arguing that if the future is not fixed then God cannot know the future.

If he does not know the future he is NOT omniscient, he does not know everything and it most certainly would be a flaw on his omniscience.

Your argument says that the future must be fixed for God to be able to know the future and therefore know everything i.e. be omniscient.

To create an analogy

Your analogy is wrong. We are not talking about predicting events we are talking about facts that are in God's knowledge. Such facts are just as true in the future as they are in the present or the past, they are not predictions they are absolute knowledge.

He is NOT predicting you will act in a particular way or make a particular decision. His absolute knowledge dictates that you MUST act that way or make that decision. If his knowledge of this fact is wrong then he does not know everything and is therefore not omniscient.

You can therefore either walk a path through life that is fixed by God's absolute knowledge of it happening, i.e. you have no choice over its direction it is fixed and immovable, or you prove God's absolute knowledge wrong and thereby prove that God does not know everything.

[Erasmus]

To create an analogy

Your analogy is wrong. We are not talking about predicting events we are talking about facts that are in God's knowledge. Such facts are just as true in the future as they are in the present or the past, they are not predictions they are absolute knowledge.

Predicting with 100% accuracy means you know what you predict is true. You're arguing semantics, not facts, my analogy stands. If you wish, read it again and replace instances of the word "predict" with "know".

The simple fact is that just because you know what decision someone is going to make, it does not mean that they didn't choose to make it.

[GeoffBoulton]

it does not mean that they didn't choose to make it.

I never said that they didn't make the decision, just that the knowledge of their decision means that they couldn't have made any other decision.

This is the same a water boiling when it is heated. Knowledge dictates that if you heat water it WILL boil, it has no choice in the matter. Whether or not we can predict it will boil is irrelevant although in this case we can predict with 100% accuracy that it will boil.

Indeed, making predictions and seeing if they come true is exactly how we test knowledge. The difference between knowledge and a prediction is a very real one, the fact that we CAN predict something with absolute certainty is proof of the knowledge not of the validity of the prediction.

The point is that, if we go through life always choosing the path that God knows we will take, our life was predestined and we could not have chosen the path ourselves even though we made decisions along the way. We HAD to make the decisions we did and therefore do not have free will.

The alternative if we do not follow the path that God knows we will take is that God was wrong and cannot therefore be omniscient.

We can have either free will or an omniscient God but not both.

[Fallen Hero]

The future does not exist. When the future is here, so to speak, it exists. Thus a god knowing what you are doing only exactly as you do it, would be omniscient.

[Alice Shade]

Oh...

People, the idea of Christian God was, that he layed out plans beforehand, and they are fixed.

So the issue of him not telling anything to followers is not exactly giving them free will, or not.
It`s about letting them think they have free will (while subconsciously knowing, that "big bro" is leading them all the time), or let them feel like puppets.

[Fallen Hero]

Oh...

People, the idea of Christian God was, that he layed out plans beforehand, and they are fixed.

So the issue of him not telling anything to followers is not exactly giving them free will, or not.
It`s about letting them think they have free will (while subconsciously knowing, that "big bro" is leading them all the time), or let them feel like puppets.

I feel like I just entered into the film the Matrix.

[GeoffBoulton]

The future does not exist.

Nice one! Except ... ;)

Time is relative to the observer and their frame of reference. In the limited frame of reference that we, thankfully, ;) enjoy on earth time appears to pass in the same way to everyone.

However, this is not the case when frames of reference from different accelerations are taken into account, particularly when those accelerations approach the speed of light. General relativity has been tested many times and its predictions regarding these time differences have been shown to be correct.

A simplistic and hypothetical example would be a man falling into a black hole. For him, passing over the event horizon would occur in an instant, to an outside observer he would appear to hover at the boundary for an infinity.

For God to be omnipotent he would have to know the timelines associated with all possible frames of reference. Quite clearly the information contained in these timelines would make our own, non-relativistic, notion of the present and the future meaningless.

Just because, for us, the future hasn't happened doesn't mean that it hasn't already happened, or is at least viewable, from the viewpoint of a different frame of reference.

I feel like I just entered into the film the Matrix.

LOL ;)

[Fallen Hero]

The future does not exist.

Nice one! Except ... ;)

Time is relative to the observer and their frame of reference. In the limited frame of reference that we, thankfully, ;) enjoy on earth time appears to pass in the same way to everyone.

However, this is not the case when frames of reference from different accelerations are taken into account, particularly when those accelerations approach the speed of light. General relativity has been tested many times and its predictions regarding these time differences have been shown to be correct.

A simplistic and hypothetical example would be a man falling into a black hole. For him, passing over the event horizon would occur in an instant, to an outside observer he would appear to hover at the boundary for an infinity.

For God to be omnipotent he would have to know the timelines associated with all possible frames of reference. Quite clearly the information contained in these timelines would make our own, non-relativistic, notion of the present and the future meaningless.

Just because, for us, the future hasn't happened doesn't mean that it hasn't already happened, or is at least viewable, from the viewpoint of a different frame of reference.

I feel like I just entered into the film the Matrix.

LOL ;)

Bah! I know General relativity, I did not think about the implications it would have here, thanks. So there for there is no past, there is no future, there is only now. because if that is the case... ok, the logic here is breaking up on me, nevermind (left in to see the way my brain works after a whole day of trying to understand physics and engineering in german... and it being 23 30 now..

[Alice Shade]

Matrix does borrows quite a bit of religion, ne?

Believe, or you`re going to hell!

Well, Neo didn`t believed - and he went to hell. (Yes, note, how those "battery racks" look like, in first movie. A lot of people would agree, that yes, hell might look exactly like that.)

[Fallen Hero]

Already in hell.

[Alice Shade]

True.

[AaronD]

The Matrix was largely inspired by the Bible. In fact, the trilogy was pretty much a futuristic passion, making Neo the Jesus figure. The Matrix movies were so inspired by the bible that every license plate in the film is the citation for a section of the bible relevant to the scene the car is in or the character based on that section.

[Fallen Hero]

And that, is the most genius thing I have ever heard of from a movie.

[GeoffBoulton]

every license plate in the film is the citation for a section of the bible relevant to the scene

You do realise Aaron that I'm now going to have to watch the film again and check out the bible passages! ;)

[Fallen Hero]

I would if I had the film on me.

[AaronD]

every license plate in the film is the citation for a section of the bible relevant to the scene

You do realise Aaron that I'm now going to have to watch the film again and check out the bible passages! ;)

You don't need to. On my Matrix forums ( http://z9.invisionfree.com/matrix_chat ) it is all explained in the appropriate sections. Just look for posts by the member Seraphim.

[Fallen Hero]

Ok, another thought.

Because freedom is the ability to hold your own beliefs without someone else saying you are wrong, and also the ability to tell someone that their beliefs are wrong, we can say that freedom does not exist. Also, a god tells you what you cannot do, therefore, with religions, there is also no freedom. The only scenario where there is freedom is when there is only one person and they are atheist.

[SirRuben]

Also, a god tells you what you cannot do, therefore, with religions, there is also no freedom. The only scenario where there is freedom is when there is only one person and they are atheist.

Actually, in the old northern mythology (that is an official religion in Denmark) there's no gods that say what you can or can not do.

You are yourself all the way, no holy book, no dates or times when you must pray, no direction in the way you want to pray/sacrifice. It is up to you how you want to believe, pray and make a personal sacrifice, like an offer to the gods you know.. Of course there are guidelines, but in the end it's up to you..

It's the perfect religion if it weren't for the fact that i don't believe in divinity at all..

http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html


Asetru is a way of life which is based on living with and in the world as it is. Our values are built on the natural. Love is for those one loves, loyalty for those who are close to one. You are the friend of your friends. Hospitality is expected and given. One respects other people. One is tolerant to them even though one does not always understand them. If one is threatened, one stands by his right. Dignity and self respect are important elements for the Asetru. Forn Siðr - Asa and Vane Religious Community in Denmark considers all people as equal. Noone is completely worthless, and it is in meeting ones destiny that the individual can show the contents of ones' character.

[Nameless]

Free will is a myth.

For every reaction there is an action that caused it. The action determines the reaction. Everything is deterministic - things that seem random like flipping a coin are actually determined by how you drop it and many other variables, but since we can't determine them it only seems random to us. Every choice we make is determined by the exact state of our brain in regards to the exact state of the surrounding environment, all of which has been determined by previous actions, determined by previous actions... Every choice we make is not a true decision but a result of a theoretically infinite string of determined reactions. It is only since we CAN NOT know all the variables that we perceive it as choice.

Okay, that's probably not a very good explanation, but that's pretty much my opinion.

[AaronD]

Free will is a myth.

For every reaction there is an action that caused it. The action determines the reaction. Everything is deterministic - things that seem random like flipping a coin are actually determined by how you drop it and many other variables, but since we can't determine them it only seems random to us. Every choice we make is determined by the exact state of our brain in regards to the exact state of the surrounding environment, all of which has been determined by previous actions, determined by previous actions... Every choice we make is not a true decision but a result of a theoretically infinite string of determined reactions. It is only since we CAN NOT know all the variables that we perceive it as choice.

Okay, that's probably not a very good explanation, but that's pretty much my opinion.

The only problem with that is it cuts the human mind out of the loop. What you are saying is not certainty, it is probability, and as long as there is a mere probability that somebody will choose one way or another, the higher probability is not always the best, nor is the outcome at all predictable. Human minds do work in random ways, in bursts of electricity weaving in and out of nerve tissue, through synapses and dendrites, axons and nodes. These electrical impulses are random, of varying sizes and shapes, different completely within and between human beings. And somehow, all of these electric impulses, muscles, bones, etc, are controlled by our consciousness, by our individual thought process and way of looking at things. To claim that there is no free will is to claim that there are no irregularities, no mutations or consciousness, no questions which we truly want to know the answer to without a preordained use for them besides having the knowledge itself. Also, eradicating free will means that none of us are accountable for our own actions, and is just a scapegoat for those too immature, too irresponsible, too stupid to take responsibility for their own actions. This is my opinion, and I believe it to be invariably and ultimately correct.

[Fallen Hero]

Also, a god tells you what you cannot do, therefore, with religions, there is also no freedom. The only scenario where there is freedom is when there is only one person and they are atheist.

Actually, in the old northern mythology (that is an official religion in Denmark) there's no gods that say what you can or can not do.

You are yourself all the way, no holy book, no dates or times when you must pray, no direction in the way you want to pray/sacrifice. It is up to you how you want to believe, pray and make a personal sacrifice, like an offer to the gods you know.. Of course there are guidelines, but in the end it's up to you..

It's the perfect religion if it weren't for the fact that i don't believe in divinity at all..

http://www.fornsidr.dk/index_uk.html


Asetru is a way of life which is based on living with and in the world as it is. Our values are built on the natural. Love is for those one loves, loyalty for those who are close to one. You are the friend of your friends. Hospitality is expected and given. One respects other people. One is tolerant to them even though one does not always understand them. If one is threatened, one stands by his right. Dignity and self respect are important elements for the Asetru. Forn Siðr - Asa and Vane Religious Community in Denmark considers all people as equal. Noone is completely worthless, and it is in meeting ones destiny that the individual can show the contents of ones' character.

Gah! I should not have forgot about that I know a lot of people from that religion. I know it is an official religion in Denmark, I wish it was in Canada too. That religion is why I have said that the older religions make more sense.

[ibgeekn4me]

OK, I am new to these boards, but here is my argument that god can be omniscient and free will can exist. Before I begin, I am Catholic, please don't hold this against me.

While yes there are many contradictions in the world of Catholicism the idea of omniscience and free will is not one of them. God is all knowing in the sense that he knows you, I would defy you to show me where the bible or catechism says that God knows EVERYTHING there is to know about everything to happen. I would say that god does not know everything there is to know. He does not know the future for it has not happened yet. Due to this fact we have free will. God instead knows everything about each person, and thus has all the knowledge of the human race. He also knows what we are likely to do and may try to influence our decision. But, the devil is also there to influence our decisions, and in the end we make a choice, whether for good, evil or indifferent. The choice remains ours.

And for the record, Google is not omniscient, it does not know everything about me, but it like God is willing to learn.

I really do like the idea of Googlism, and I will challenge anybody to a formal debate here and now about the existence free will and omniscience as discussed in this forum or about the omniscience of God vs. Google.

[GeoffBoulton]

Many churches claim their God is omniscient. If their particular scripture does not state this to be the case then the church is making 'false' claims. But this is a side issue, if the Catholic church believes that God only knows everything about 'you' rather than 'everything' then they should stop using the word omniscient.

Omniscience means knowing everything. It has a very specific meaning. If you claim omniscience for your God you are claiming that he knows everything. Not that he only knows certain things nor that he can only know what is knowable.

It also means that you would 'know' the future. After all, if such knowledge is 'unknowable' or 'not known' then how could Jesus have made any of his prophesies? He could only have tried to make them happen, he would have no guarantee that they would be fulfilled unless he already had the knowledge that they 'would' be fulfilled.

The point is that if you have an omniscient God then he knows everything that has happened, everything that is happening and everything that will happen or could even 'possibly' happen.

If all future events are known then they are predestined, they will happen just as they are destined to do, no matter what decisions you as an individual make along the way.

Of course, if you do have free will and make a decision that was not pre-determined, then God's knowledge was wrong and he cannot therefore be omniscient.

EDIT: P.S. We do not claim omniscience for Google, only that it is the CLOSEST we have come to PROVABLE omniscience

[Fallen Hero]

So I will rework that paragraph for you so it sounds that way the ancient Egyptians put it "He (or She) is wiser than the million (dead noble) men"

Also, being Catholic will not be held against you, we have before stood up for the Catholics. :wink:

[ibgeekn4me]

Ahhh i am sorry i did mis-read that part, as far as factually, I will concede that Google is the most omniscient thing humans have easy access to. I do not believe God is completely omniscient, only mostly. As for scripture and Jesus thing, I'll get back to you on that, after I have thought about it a bit more.

[Alice Shade]

Term "omniscient" defines total knowledge by the construction.

Omni - all
scient - knowledgeable.

Thus, one can`t be partially omniscient. Close to omniscience, yes, but not partially.

Perhaps, the better expression is to say "astoundingly knowledgeable of subject".

[ibgeekn4me]

Term "omniscient" defines total knowledge by the construction.

Omni - all
scient - knowledgeable.

Thus, one can`t be partially omniscient. Close to omniscience, yes, but not partially.

Perhaps, the better expression is to say "astoundingly knowledgeable of subject".

I suppose that literally yes, however it is possible to be omniscient as per a certain subject.

The word offers no limitation on subject matter, you can limit it b using it as an adjective.

"God is omniscient about me"

[Alice Shade]

Again, semantical question.

Omni is generally defined as all-encompassing label.

On other hand, Omnibus is clearly a bus for all PEOPLE.

Common consensus on "omniscient" is, however - "all-knowing about everything", and term is used as such.