Muslims

[Googler]

I recently got this email and thought I'd share it.

Detroit has become Interesting.

Very interesting read from a friend in Detroit.

Living in the Detroit area I can concur with this, we have more Muslims
moving into our neighborhood monthly and they are very active in the
schools, preaching all the time about their rights and how tolerant we
should be of their faith. However toleration is a one way street with
them. We are to l earn about Ramadan, etc. But they are not to learn
about Easter or Christmas. What is below is very true. In God We Trust
or the Basics of Islam.

This is a must read -- it's short but Very informative! The Muslim
religion is the fastest growing religion per capita in the United
States, especially in the minority races! Allah or Jesus? By Rick Mathes
Last month I attended my annual training session that 's required for
maintaining my state prison security clearance. During the training
session there was a presentation by three speakers representing the
Roman Catholic, Protestant and Muslim faiths, who
explained each of their beliefs. I was particularly interested in what
the Islamic Imam had to say. The Imam gave a great presentation of the
basics of Islam complete with a video. After the presentations, time was
provided for questions and answers. When it was my turn, I directed my
question to the Imam and asked:
Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that most Imams and
clerics of Islam have declared a holy jihad [Holy war] against the
infidels of the world. And, that by killing an infidel, which is a
command to all Muslims, they are assured of a place in Heaven. If that's
the case, can you give me the definition of an infidel? There was no
disagreement with my statements and without hesitation, he replied,
"Non-believers"

I responded, So, let me make sure I have this straight. All followers of
Allah have been commanded to kill everyone who is not of your faith so
they can go to Heaven. Is that correct? The expression on his face
changed from one of authority and command to that of a little boy who
had just been caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He sheepishly
replied, "Yes".

I then stated, "Well, Sir, I have a real problem trying to imagine Pope
John Paul II commanding all Catholics to kill those of your faith, or
Dr. Stanley ordering Protestants to do the same in order to go to
Heaven". The Imam was speechless. I continued, I also have a problem
with being your friend when you and your brother clerics are telling
your followers to kill me. Let me ask you a question. Would you rather
have your Allah who tells you to kill me in order to go to Heaven, or my
Jesus who tells me to love you because I am going to Heaven and He wants
you to be with me.
You could have heard a pin drop as the Imam hung his head in shame.
Needless to say, the organizers and or promoters of the Diversification
training seminar were not happy with Rick's way of dealing with the
Islamic Imam and exposing the truth about the Muslim belief .

I think everyone in the U.S. Should be required to read this, but with
the liberal justice system, liberal media, and the ACLU, there is no way
this will be widely publicized. Please pass this on to all your e-mail
contacts. This is a true story and the author, Rick Mathes, is a
well-known leader in prison ministry. GOOD THINKING

[GeoffBoulton]

We had a similar thing happen at the University of Bedfordshire in the UK. Luton, where the university is based, has a very high Muslim population. The university also has a very active Muslim Club at the university which constantly plasters the walls and noticeboards with 'informative' literature about Islam.

Prior to the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq there were frequent demonstrations outside the university along with 'recruiters' from various Islamic groups trying to encourage the 'faithful' to fight for Allah against the 'infidels'.

Needless to say, nothing was done to stop this because nobody in authority wanted to be seen to be 'disrespecting' Islam or acting in a 'racist' manner although it was apparently okay for Muslims to call for the death of infidels, etc.

It is only now, after the London bombings, that things are changing and Muslims are beginning to be charged for inciting racial hatred, racial murder, etc.

[punkinside]

The fact is that Islam is the religion that calls for the most extremism, its fairly hard to encounter a former muslim turned atheist or a muslim "moderate". This also has to do with the fact that most muslims live in very poor countries.

But throwing political correctness out the window, I truly ponder how much harm a little genocide of these people might do. Anyone who takes religion that seriously should be exterminated IMHO.

[Saramon]

Personally I think that a religion, that condemns another for a different belief should be split up and moved to a country were they are in the minority, and then see what it is like to pursecute others for an idea, it would be nice if religions would simply say Idea, instead of belief, ideas are easy to change, beliefs arn't.

[Alice Shade]

Well...

To be honest, if just for a while, being a Muslim was punishable by death, it would`ve made them read Qu`ran again, more carefully.

And frankly, the "kill infidels" is more of a free interpretation of Qu`ran, then rigidly-stated directive in it. But, since it`s practically a killer`s mandate from heaven, it`s awfully popular.

To be precise, Qu`ran recognises Jews and Christians as "people of the book" (aka, as sibling religions), and states, that muslim can accept food and even meat from them, provided that it was drained of blood, and not explicitly-forbidden by Qu`ran. Obviusly, there is nothing in Qu`ran about having to kill those, who`s food you are welcome to accept.

And, in all fairness, let`s note, that both Bible and Torah/Talmud have their fair share of advocated violence against AGRESSING HEATHENS. As far as I know, neither of three Abrahamic religions advocates religious conquests and forceing of it upon people.

[Googler]

I would agree. Really, all religious texts are up to interpretation. Some just tend to interpret differently than others.

[Alice Shade]

That`s just the f**k of it, Googler.

Qu`ran was designed as a set of fundamental rules, and they are to be interpreted on case-to-case basis by imams, which are supposed to be enlightened with Muhammed`s spirit.

Alas, instead of peaceful philosophers, we had received a bunch of warmongers.

[punkinside]

Hence, my little genocide idea. :D

Better yet... convince the christians and jews to have some sort of "crusade" against them again. I love it when holy people kill each other.

[AaronD]

I've never heard of a Jewish fundamentalist or a Jewish extremist for some reason... Though I'm sure some exist.

[punkinside]

because they don't call themselves that. Those are the "orthodox" jews.

[Fallen Hero]

I've never heard of a Jewish fundamentalist or a Jewish extremist for some reason... Though I'm sure some exist.

There is a Jewish hate group in alaska..

[Fallen Hero]

But throwing political correctness out the window, I truly ponder how much harm a little genocide of these people might do. Anyone who takes religion that seriously should be exterminated IMHO.

That is the most horrible thought that I have heard in the last... well ever. I cannot believe that you said that.. twice, you asshole. I do not care how much you disagree with someone's faith, there is no reason to call for the death of them all.

[Fallen Hero]

Sorry about calling you an asshole, but I am not taking it back. That was mean.

[AaronD]

my best friend's an Orthodox Jew.

[punkinside]

my best friend's an Orthodox Jew.

Well, aren't those the ones that follow all those laws about the sabbath. Like not turning lights on, driving, walking more than 2000 steps and such? Not to mention the beards etc... Maybe I'm mistaken then!

[punkinside]

That is the most horrible thought that I have heard in the last... well ever. I cannot believe that you said that.. twice, you asshole. I do not care how much you disagree with someone's faith, there is no reason to call for the death of them all.

Sorry to have offended you, I know I'm an asshole and I shouldn't have said it... That was a half joke, but of course calling for genocide is not that funny.

But like I said in an earlier post. I hate haters and do not tolerate intolerants. The way women are treated in Muslim countries alone makes me want to start shooting them in the head one by one. Add to the pile of dead motherfuckers every single dumb fuck who protested the Danish cartoons and you got yourself a pretty nice mass grave. I could go on... And I do not apologize for having these feelings.

[Fallen Hero]

You do not need to apologize for being angry, but killing them all is not the answer, it never will be. Unfortunately the world is the way it is and oppression exists, we can only try to change the oppressors and support the oppressed.

[Alice Shade]

Getting back on topic of muslims...

I`d like to note, that the idea of virgins as an award for waging "righteous" war is pretty vague. On which, I`d refer this:

http://www.jumbojoke.com/images/virgins.jpg


(See http://www.jumbojoke.com/72_virgins_awaiting_martyrs_in_heaven_763.html for source.)

P.S. If you`re offended... Seriously, dude. Lighten up.

[Cain]

I've never heard of a Jewish fundamentalist or a Jewish extremist for some reason... Though I'm sure some exist.

They do. Rabbi Kahane is a good example, he founded a group dedicated to genocide of the Palestinians, they carried out bombings and shootings, including one attack on schoolchildren.

In fact, religious extremism among all major faiths has increased since the 1980s. Alot of what the Christian militias in America get up to are very underreported. For example, in 2003 two guys with a working chemical weapon and enough soduim cyanide to kill 6000 people were picked up in Texas. Another involved a qualified microbiologist with links to the Aryan Nations getting hold of alot 3 vials of Yersinia pestis, the Black Death.

Bruce Hoffman's Inside Terrorism is a good book for this, though in reality religiously inspired terrorism is massively understudied. Sageman has made some headway with Al-Qaeda, but they are unique in so many ways, the data is useless for groups like Hamas and Al-Asqa Brigades, let alone the Aryan Nations etc

[Kokoba]

What Islam needs is a reformation. At some point the other Abrahamic faiths (Judaism, Christianity) have been challenged from within and forced to adapt their teachings/outlook/behaviour/whatever you want to call it. The more Muslims that are educated as philosophers and look to the Qu'ran with that intent, the closer the whole faith gets to a reformation.

[Alice Shade]

True, but there`s a small issue of majority of Islamic spiritual leaders being in favor of Jihad.

[Cain]

Hardly a majority. The Jihadists are only thriving in areas where foreigners suffer discrimination or in tyrannical countries. In places like America and Ireland, where the Muslim population is well integrated, the Jihadists are making absolutely no headway at all. Its quite funny infact, as they turn up preaching fire and brimstone and doom to those who oppose them...and no-one listens, or cares.

The Sageman data shows the international Salafist jihad is actually only preached in about 10 mosques around the world and is linked to perhaps 20 main preachers, no more. Since the ISJ includes all transnational Muslim terrorist organizations (obviously groups like Hamas and Hezbollah are ethnically based, despite what religious beliefs they hold) thats not a very large number.

Islam does need a reformation, its true. Preachers need to start picking apart the dangerous ideology of Sayid Qutb, the main theologian of violent jihad and, more importantly, an idiot with no clerical training, which is usual for those involved in violent activities. The infamous Abu Hamza, for example, taught himself the Koran via internet downloads and CDs, as have many others.

There are already some groups working towards this reformation, but unfortunately they are hamstrung by links to Middle Eastern governments, traditionally wary of Islam and all too willing to politicise the message. But, for example, in Yemen there are Imam's who talk to the Al-Qaeda prisoners there, and teach them that what they think they know about Islam is wrong. They are very helpful in breaking down the will and loyalty of the terrorists, I am reliably informed. Saudi Arabia and Jordan likely have similar groups too, maybe Egypt as well.

[Alice Shade]

Issue is with popularity.

Perhaps, I should`ve said "majorly known".

So far, everyone knows, that some Islamists promote Jihad, but it takes some digging, to find out about Islamists, who discourage same Jihad.

[punkinside]

Some digging? I've yet to see an Imam publicly denounce any terrorist attack. And publicly say that this is NOT the way the Koran intents muslims to spread the word or whatever.

[Kokoba]

Well, to say that you haven't heard any Muslim decry acts of terrorism sort of proves Alice's point about it taking a little digging.

Beyond that, the media ultimately lives to support itself. What story would get more attention (in the American media, anyway): a Muslim terrorist bombing, or a Muslim condemning such an act? As long as it gets the viewers, perpetuating the stereotype is going to win. Beyond that, I think that Muslim speakers who denounce such acts and try to promote a better understanding and impression of Islam are more likely to get sound-bited down to just something like "Islam is a religion of peace," which isn't much of an argument on its own and thus makes the whole thing look like a rather weak, last-minute "I better cover my ass" argument.

[TigerEyes]

Personally, I have no hatred towards Muslims. I try not to carry any prejustices, although obviously I do, as I'm a human.

I tend to think that economized Muslims [or any people for that matter] tend not to blow themselves up. If you give them a chance to earn wealth and buy themselves what they want, they will usually change that option. Countries that are integrated into the world economy suffer less from extremism stemming from their own country. Like a person in the US, they have the opportunity to financially better themselves. An Iraqi, or most middle east citizens, are subject to poverty without even a chance to compete globally. I believe if you industrialize them, with a chance to pick between extremism and capitalism, they'll opt for the one that benefits them. Given an education, which is a product of industrialization, and you're even more likely to eliminate extremism. So, I think that if a bunch of Christians were stranded in a desert they'd be pretty pissed to, it just happens to be Muslims this century.

[punkinside]

Personally, I have no hatred towards Muslims. I try not to carry any prejustices, although obviously I do, as I'm a human.

I tend to think that economized Muslims [or any people for that matter] tend not to blow themselves up. If you give them a chance to earn wealth and buy themselves what they want, they will usually change that option. Countries that are integrated into the world economy suffer less from extremism stemming from their own country. Like a person in the US, they have the opportunity to financially better themselves. An Iraqi, or most middle east citizens, are subject to poverty without even a chance to compete globally. I believe if you industrialize them, with a chance to pick between extremism and capitalism, they'll opt for the one that benefits them. Given an education, which is a product of industrialization, and you're even more likely to eliminate extremism. So, I think that if a bunch of Christians were stranded in a desert they'd be pretty pissed to, it just happens to be Muslims this century.
You seem to forget about the muslims, born and raised in England, that readily blowed themselves up one fine summer morning. This also stems from the lack of integration or social inclusion but not so much from being stranded in the dessert. This religion, when so-called "moderates" condone the actions of the (not so small) minority of extremists by simply keeping their mouth shut gives itself much better to extremism than any other. The wound is too deep, ingrained into their skulls.

How does the "civilized world" counter this? With all the PC crap going around, they're allowing the immigrants to form their little "ghettos" where only the Koran applies. Why go to another country and then refuse to learn the language spoken or acknowledge any other law besides the Koran? Isnt that what they had back home? Their logic escapes me for some reason.

I truly hate to see women, completely covered from head to toe in black on a sunny, hot summer day, always walking 6 feet behind their man. It makes my blood boil.

It makes my blood boil when I hear news that the father of a 16 yr old girl stoned her to death because she was dating a non-muslim boy and relied his defense in the fact that that is the law of the Koran. Completely unrepentant. I would've shot that guy in the nuts right then and there and let him bleed out in agony while I repeatedly smaked him in the face with a leather strap. But noooooo, we're too civilized for that.

I hate it when a school passes a regulation forbidding any show of religious icons or clothes and the only ones that protest are the muslims who want their girls to be "covered". And usually get away with it!! What is the worst part? That the girls themselves want to be covered also!! But of course... wouldn't want to fall from favor with Allah!? Once more, makes my blood boil...

How will moderates arise when they kill most?

As you can see, I got a soft spot on women's rights. And these guys just trample all over them every way I turn. Like I said, the wound is too deep, I recommend amputation.

[Kokoba]

A friend of mine took some Women's Studies course on I guess feminism and ethics? Or something? and was talking to me about your last point, that the girls and women often don't see a problem with things like burkas and so forth, and that Americans/Westerners look at it like, "Oh,that's so horrible, they must hate it!" and immediately rally to help them out, when they don't perceive themselves as needing "help" at all.

I am the last one to argue for moral relativism, certainly. There are grave, grave violations of women's and civil rights that continue on today, in the Muslim community as well as elsewhere. (female genital mutilation, anyone?). The trick of it is drawing the line between viable culture (burkas) and needless barbarism (stoning rape victims). And to a larger extent, drawing the line between culture/ethnicity activities and extreme isolationism.

Another thing to consider is that oftentimes such practices are just as strongly, or even more strongly, enforced by the older women on the younger ones--not just men enforcing it on women. A sort of, "well I had to do it, so you do too!" mentality.

[Alice Shade]

Which is why all practitioners of religion (any) should be closely scrutinised for attempts to commit hate crimes and to abuse freedom of thought.

[Chitos]

All bad things about Islam can be traced from this source: the hadith.
These collections of sayings/stories alleged from the prophet is second law for muslims after Quran. Muslims interpret Quran based on these hadiths also. The result is ... today Islam.

But after Googling, I've found Islam that based on Quran only (ourbeacon.com), without hadith whatsoever. I just found that hadithless Islam is more close to Budhism, but with a God :D

No senseless rituals, prefer logic over blind faith, the best men on earth is whom most beneficial to society etc etc...

[tatty000]

Hence, my little genocide idea. :D

Better yet... convince the Christians and jews to have some sort of "crusade" against them again. I love it when holy people kill each other.
I'd hate that. The 'Christians' that would go to war would mean the Christian nations, basically Western world. Their army's consist of many different religions, including atheism. Now, I'm sure you wouldn't want that, would you?

Personally I think that a religion, that condemns another for a different belief should be split up and moved to a country were they are in the minority, and then see what it is like to pursecute others for an idea, it would be nice if religions would simply say Idea, instead of belief, ideas are easy to change, beliefs arn't.
Everyone has an itching ache to accuse others. It is part of our nature. People in religions just like to take their text and use it in someway or another to back themselves up. Humility is a virtue.