Israel vs. Gaza (lebenon to?)

[followerOfGoogle]

debate whether or not Israel should be attacking Gaza, and! if it should be so feircly

[tagnostic]

Last time I checked Hamas had vowed to destroy Israel and all Israeli's
oh, and shooting rockets at civilians isn't an act of peace. Its self defense, there is no limited response, you either fight back or wuss out.

[followerOfGoogle]

in think that Israel has full rights in attacking Gaza, but not shooting anything that moves and bombing every possible building, and it would probably be in Gazas best interest to acually blame Hamas for some of this rather than just call Israel terrorists

[tagnostic]

if everything that moves is shooting at you, shoot back, if Hamas and the other terrorists keep hiding in schools and mosques, and shooting from them, there are going to be civilian casualties. if the civilians don't like the situation, get rid of Hamas. this isn't hide & seek where the bad guys, can call a safe zone. you shoot at people, people shoot back.

[Fallen Hero]

if everything that moves is shooting at you, shoot back, if Hamas and the other terrorists keep hiding in schools and mosques, and shooting from them, there are going to be civilian casualties. if the civilians don't like the situation, get rid of Hamas. this isn't hide & seek where the bad guys, can call a safe zone. you shoot at people, people shoot back.

The issue is very complicated. However, I do not think that bombing schools is right. Especially when they are UN shelters and you told people to go there for safety.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Will post later.
I have German homework to do.

[winwun]

Sie ist gewerken mitt der broomenvacuum ?:icon_lol:

Und den mitt der moppensloshher ?:icon_lol:

:icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes: :icon_rolleyes:

[rmw]

It's not as simple as saying "Gaza should get rid of Hamas," because Hamas is not just terrorist organization, akin to al-Qaeda. It's also has political and humanitarian branches, which the Gazans fully support. From wikipedia:

Notorious for its suicide attacks and other attacks on Israeli civilians and security forces, Hamas also runs extensive social programs and has gained popularity in Palestinian society by establishing hospitals, education systems, libraries and other services throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

Also, Israel faces increased radicalization from Hamas and Gazans as they continue their offensive. With the kind of political and social support Hamas has in Gaza, and to a lesser extent, the West Bank and some of the Middle East, Israel has shot themselves in the foot. It's doubtful they can take Hamas out permanently in the first place, and the offensive seems like a strategic backfire, as it seems more likely that radicalization and support for Hamas increases. From Reuters:

Hundreds of Palestinians queued from early morning outside bakeries in Gaza City, their patience running out.

"I've been here for three hours and I will have to wait longer. Maybe a missile will bomb us so we can be rid of such a miserable life," said Abu Othman, a father of seven.

He said his sympathy was growing for the Hamas Islamists whose rocket fire into Israel triggered the offensive.

"I used to criticise the rockets. Maybe I still do but not like before. Now I want to see buses blown up in Israel," said Othman.

This is not to condone Hamas attacks on Israel, however, I question what Israel hopes to gain from this.

[followerOfGoogle]

part of my persauve essay for social studies:
The world has started to feel compassion for Gaza being the underdog who was attacked for no reason by the big, mean, Israeli military force killing woman, children, and innocent male civilians. Until of course an ambassador from Gaza has an interview:
Ambassador "I condemn the killing of civilians on both sides regardless of who is doing it, regardless of the objective"
Reporter (Geraldo from Fox) "Are the people firing those missiles terrorists?"
Ambassador "No, no they are not terrorists."

So why is it only the Israelis that are terrorists? If you are firing a rocket at a civilian village, you don't know where it is going to land, who it's going to hurt, if you kill a kid, of course they're going to be angry. Firing missiles, mortar and rockets into a country will of course force the government to take police actions to defend themselves.

although i think israel is justified in their attack, they shouldn't say that there will be a 6 hour cease fire to let aid in, and then fire a tank shel at a humanitaran aid truck with UN ensigma, flags and coordince where they will be at what time

[winwun]

Throughout recorded history, Jewish people have been hated and despised.

During the dark ages, when the plague was rampant, people, in frustration, would band together and attack the Jewish people and villages. (Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror).

Perhaps if the question "WHY ?" was studied, and reasonable and legitimate answers gleaned, then, and only then could steps be taken to insure a lasting peace for the future, but untill the question is answered and steps taken, nothing will change.

[Fallen Hero]

Throughout recorded history, Jewish people have been hated and despised.

During the dark ages, when the plague was rampant, people, in frustration, would band together and attack the Jewish people and villages. (Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror).

Perhaps if the question "WHY ?" was studied, and reasonable and legitimate answers gleaned, then, and only then could steps be taken to insure a lasting peace for the future, but untill the question is answered and steps taken, nothing will change.

If you could veil antisemitism any more thinly, the veil would be on the other side of the opinion.

Placing the blame on the Jews and citing a book about crusades era west europe does not make them the sole antagonizer and guilty party.

[winwun]

"There was no veil" -- Harrison Ford, Sabrina.:D

I do not think of myself as an anti-semite simply because I can recognize the source of an age-old problem.

I choose my friends based on their positive qualities, and that I do not find being abusive, aggressive, antagonistic, divisive, and avaricious to be positive qualities, in no way categorizes me as anything more than moderately perceptive.

It is normal, however to fall back on the remedy of "If you can't attack the messsage, attack the messenger", and like it or not, in so doing, you are helping to corroborate what I pointed out.

[Fallen Hero]

Not really, and the attack was as directly on the message as the messenger. Anti-semitism is a quality that your statement shares with you. If you want to bring this to a discussion of fallacies: The attributes of the part to not need to be the attributes of the whole. That is to say: the negative that you see, which can be identified in a smaller fraction of the world jewish population and even in a small fraction of the israeli jewish population does not imply that it is an attribute of the whole of the israeli population.

[winwun]

I can only base my perceptions on my experiences.

If there are 50 rottweilers coming at you, 2 might want belly-rubs, but the other 48 want lunch, and if you do not recognize this fact, then you will be . . ., well, . . . lunch . . .

Had I the opportunity as well as the inclination to get to know all 50, then I might choose to associate with the two, but otherwise, . . .

[Fallen Hero]

Now you are misreading me, and it seems damn near intentional.

MY statement was, that if 1 or 2 of 50 are bad, you can't assume that all of them are. Which is essentially what you are doing. I highly doubt that your sample of jewish culture and your interaction with jewish culture is so vast as to imply that you have met a signifcant percentage of the jews in the world.

Oh, and with your book, you are forgetting that the book is writing over the time of the crusades (not inherently exact, however rough time period).

[winwun]

Are you seriously suggesting that in my normal life, interacting in a normal manner with a normal cosmopolitan society, that I would only come into contact with those Jewish persons who happened to manifest undesirable characteristics ? ?

If this is the case, then this discussion is finished, for you have taken a FAR more entrenched and biased position than what you are accusing me of.

Oh, and the book isn't "mine", it belongs to a very well-known and universally accepted author. (ess)

Also, the reference was that even as late as the Dark Ages, the Jewish populations, for whatever debatable reasons, could still stir up the general population to extract punitive indemnities from the Jewish persons.

I could quote you 50 "citations" (many of them before Masada), but just what is the validating factor of citations ?

They are nothing more than someone's opinion, no more or less valid than the ideas and opinions that you and I are exchanging.

How the misguided opinion that if something has ben printed, then it is the word of God, ever got started is beyond me.

It is my opinion that what has hapened in the past, subject to a few ennobling instances, is to be lived down, NOT played up and immortalized as actions to be aspired to, but rather as actions to be overcome.

[Fallen Hero]

1. That is now what your previous posts implied.

2. Dark Ages for a reason.

3. I do not have an entrenched opinion. I disagree with Israel's actions and consider the bombings of civilian areas a war crime. However, I also understand why they do it. Despite their motivation, which is to stop the criminal attacks which Hamas commits against Israeli people, it does not excuse their choice of targets nor the loss of life occuring in the Gaza strip.

On the other hand, I would NEVER, EVER assume that a whole race or religion's people are the sole root of the problem. This conflict is merely the latest development in the complex issue which is the middle east at this time.

To imply that the Jews were the precise cause of the problem is naive. While I am not jewish, I have close friends who are and who exemplify only the most angellic and kindest of attributes. (No, this is not implication that all jews are good people. It is only a statement to the effect of not all jews are bad people, and to assume so is wrong) They do not deserve the blame that you have given them, and yes, some of them are Israeli. In the same respect, I know as many worthy people out of arabic culture who would have an equally shamed and insulted honour to imlpy that the islamic people were the root and cause of the issue. The only people on which the blame for this can even be considered is Hamas and the Israeli government. Not a single foot soldier, nor civilian is to blame. Even if someone in Sdeot had wished for it. That is why I so vehemently have disagreed with you.

[winwun]

Well, FINALLY our left-leaning media have grudgingly admitted the horrible truth.

On NBC Nightly News night before last, "Casualties in the conflict have surpassed 1,000, 15 of which were Israeli".

OMG, the nazis didn't have a kill-rate that high . . .

[Sister Faith]

Well, FINALLY our left-leaning media have grudgingly admitted the horrible truth.

On NBC Nightly News night before last, "Casualties in the conflict have surpassed 1,000, 15 of which were Israeli".

OMG, the nazis didn't have a kill-rate that high . . .

And at least 4 of those Israeli deaths were from friendly fire (http://news.antiwar.com/2009/01/06/israel-promises-investigation-in-friendly-fire-killings/).:icon_confused:

[Fallen Hero]

Well, FINALLY our left-leaning media have grudgingly admitted the horrible truth.

On NBC Nightly News night before last, "Casualties in the conflict have surpassed 1,000, 15 of which were Israeli".

OMG, the nazis didn't have a kill-rate that high . . .
You call American media "left-leaning"? Wow.

It is pathetic. Israel just shelled a fucking UN Site.

[winwun]

Did no one other than the Kapos survive the holocaust ?

[sudikics]

Did no one other than the Kapos survive the holocaust ?
Godwin's Law has been invoked. This thread is over.

[Rainbow]

Let Israel lift the siege that lasted a year and a half before the recent offensive off of gaza and then demand hamas to stop launching missiles.

Sorry to say but western media is completely biased to Israel. We got reports almost on a weekly basis, before the offensive, things like Israel shooting at farmers, kidnapping young unarmed men. These reports dont seem to warrant importance to display according to western media. And i know, most of the violations that Israel commits here dont even get mentioned.

Things like violating Lebanese Airspace almost two thousand times in the period of 2000-2006. Kidnapping farmers, stealing water via underground pumps, shooting at herdsmen.

[tagnostic]

if they lift the siege
the palestinians
will just use it
to acquire
more
rockets
and get access
for suicide bombers
been there, done that

[Rainbow]

Thats not the pretext they used to put forth the siege. The reason for the siege was that hamas vowed to combat Israel until all palestinian land is recaptured. Under these statements the siege was enacted, and then the missiles followed.

The wall that Israel built was purposed to deflect the suicide bombers so that doesnt fit in the equation.

Okay, so if u want to call Hamas a terrorist organization, it would be hypocrisy on your part in not calling Israel a terrorist country almost for depriving 1.5 million people food, water and electricity.

[tagnostic]

depriving people who want you dead of rescources is called self defense.

[Rainbow]

Get your facts straight. They dont want them dead. They want their lands back, the lands that were formed under the U.N resolution.

Its illogical, how can hamas want Israel dead and at the same time accept ceasefire agreements, that can later lead to agreements?

[tagnostic]

perhaps i'm unaware of certain facts,
but the last time i checked, both Hamas & Fatah
had sworn to destroy Israel and drive its Jewish people into the sea.


ps Just engaging in discussion and I do hope it continues
in a civilized fashion, I really do hope there is a solution
that doesn't involve violence, however history says
dogma and religon beat Peace every time.

[Rainbow]

perhaps i'm unaware of certain facts,
but the last time i checked, both Hamas & Fatah
had sworn to destroy Israel and drive its Jewish people into the sea.


ps Just engaging in discussion and I do hope it continues
in a civilized fashion, I really do hope there is a solution
that doesn't involve violence, however history says
dogma and religon beat Peace every time.


Actually the reason for the civil disorder that raged gaza after the elections was because Fatah was ready to capitulate to Israeli demands and accept the current state of affairs. While Hamas wouldnt let go of the rights palestinians had to their lands and their right to return from abroad. Of course, the single demand of bringing back the millions of displaced Palestinians back to region is reason enough to shake the very stability of Israel. And it is this very policy; of driving the palestinians from the area, that has been the driving force behind Israeli operations since the later part of the 1940's.

Sorry, i got riled up. The last time i had a discussion with someone that is a foreigner and with Israel was during the war of 2006, over yahoo chat, with some Israelis who went about praying for the death of my entire family. No need to guess....the discussion ended with alot of foul language being swung from both sides :icon_lol:

[tagnostic]

yep, I hear ya,
it's the lack of civilized
debate that is the root
cause of all of this
that and dogma
whats so hard about
letting everyone believe
what they want to?
if they disagree,
killing is not an appropriate response
discuss it,
can't agree,
fine
agree to disagree
and move on

[Rainbow]

yep, I hear ya,
it's the lack of civilized
debate that is the root
cause of all of this
that and dogma
whats so hard about
letting everyone believe
what they want to?
if they disagree,
killing is not an appropriate response
discuss it,
can't agree,
fine
agree to disagree
and move on

Yeah but Palestinian/Israeli conflict isnt so much a religious conflict but rather a political one. Jewish and muslims populations have always lived side by side peacefully in the area, and in some instances very astute positions were given Jews. But you see the problem is the logic of it. How the world accepted to displace a whole population (Palestinians) in order to consign another population (Jews) in its place. This very occurance is what the palestians are fighting. Even though they accepted their defeats and confined themselves to accept the areas proclaimed by the U.N resolution. Yet the bitterness remains, over what was were their lands, their homes, their neighbourhoods, their schools, temples and memories, that were ripped unjustly and by force from them.

[tagnostic]

apparrently, i lack data,
it's not the political facts
i lack, its the personal
view of the situation
and opinions, wihch
is why i really hope this
discourse continues.
I can Goddess facts
I want Personal opinions
from People there

[winwun]

Rainbow, you're preaching to the choir, and no matter how many volumes I added to what you've said, I would only be an echo of your substantive analysis of the situation.

The little fat fellow with the red star on his hat said, "If it's true, it doesn't matter who said it".

[Rainbow]

And i hope that this conflict ends. You know we Arabs do not hate jews, as i already mentioned, and you guys can fact that with some research, jewish populations have always lived side by side peacefully with muslim and christian ones. Peacefully, while in Europe untold massacres and attrocaties were being done to them; from France, to England to Germany. Im not provoquing sentiment or trying to play the blame game, but im just saying that we were never enemies of the jews. Some would put forth facts of infighting between muslims and jews in the area back in the early days of Islam. I concure these facts, for with every ideology rising, their surely will be conflict and turmoil over the tipping of the balance of power. But aside these early confrontation, we have lived, for millenia, side by side, peacefully.

I would be more than pleased to continue with this discourse.

[tagnostic]

concur,
i would also appreciate any links, or references that you feel would be informational, as opposed to propaganda
by all means keep this thread going
in a civilized fashion
learning works
both ways

[Rainbow]

A good source: http://forum.tayyar.org/f91/

This forum belongs to a Lebanese christian party, called the Free Patriotic Movement. In the section i provided you can look up a thread called "Israeli Violations After July War (http://forum.tayyar.org/f91/israeli-violations-after-july-war-29923/)" You may find that it useful in search for information.

[tagnostic]

looks interesting,
i'll go back and
read more later
lotsa posts there
running back years

[Rainbow]

A lot of the posts are in French, its because lots of Lebanese are trilingual, but if something catches your attention tell me so i can translate...that is in case you dont know French.

[winwun]

I am continually impressed by the number of "down-trodden, third-world persons" who are multi-lingual, while in the U.S., it is difficult to get anyone to speak english enough to be understood.

Our Goebles is alive and well . . .

[Rainbow]

I am continually impressed by the number of "down-trodden, third-world persons" who are multi-lingual, while in the U.S., it is difficult to get anyone to speak english enough to be understood.


Lebanon is not the war torn country the media tries to portray. Every foreigner who has been to Lebanon, left with a complete mental overhaul about it. I met two Americans from South Carolina at the university last semester, they were studying Arabic (future CIA operatives anyone? :P) and they loved the country to the core whilst having upon arrival far different expectations from when they left.

[followerOfGoogle]

its been awhile since I posted on this thread, and this seems like a good opertunity to get back into it.

I feel that Isreal keeps using WWII to justify everything (not saying they wern't screwed over then), but they think they can do whatever they want with no punishment. At first I was for their retaliation (freaking missiles were being launched on them), but then they started to shoot children. Not OK. Muslims may have lived by Jews for miliniums, doesn't mean that Isreal won't be angry or scared that they're the only Jewish country in the middle east and will use everything as an excuse. I'm glad that there was a ceasefire. But both sides seem to be 'accidently' not following some it (ie, missles still flying to Isreal and Isreal shooting aid ships). Its crazy that even after all that a) Bush would still support them (I know he's not pres any more) and b) they would continue to do the forementioned actions.
Please correct me if I have stated incorrect or out of date facts.

[pclamb]

bomb them till they shit their pants.

[rzm61]

how christlike.

[google_is_my_friend]

israel needs to beat the shit out of gaza cause they was talkin shit and they couldn't back it up.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

israel needs have the shit beaten out of it cause they was talkin shit and they couldn't back it up.

Fix'd.

[djura]

Hey ya fellas, chill for a sec...
Gaza, Palestine, Iran, Egypt etc. need to explain to suicide morons that Allah wasn't a mass murderer. And Israel needs to stop addressing the problem using methods specialized by Gestapo during WW2.
And nobody is right, nobody ever was - that's why middle east shit lasts for longer than I can remember. Rightful side always wins eventually, and here we have a case of nobody being right.

Ganja might be the solution - get high instead of getting your self high (in the air)

[Perna de Pau]

I am not against suicide bombing. If there are people crazy enough to blow themselves up, they should be allowed to do it.

However someone should try to convince them to do it in the desert, where there is no risk for people who do not want to be blown up. :icon_evil:

[winwun]

Gosh, Perna, are you seriously advocating wasting a perfectly good suicide bomber ?

They are hard enough to come by, so don't use them up in a frivilous manner.

The latest catalog shows some pretty hi-tech suicide bombers with a guaranteed body count to fit all pocketbooks and budgets.

With the new models, you get a lot more bang for your buck, and with pan-wide stimulus packages, the suicide bomber market is making a slow return.

Alpo, Kibbles-And-Bits, and Little Friskies are forming a coalition to market used, or previously-owned suicide bombers, and a certain concerned demographic is simply eating it up . . .

[Sister Faith]

Gosh, Perna, are you seriously advocating wasting a perfectly good suicide bomber ?

They are hard enough to come by, so don't use them up in a frivilous manner.

The latest catalog shows some pretty hi-tech suicide bombers with a guaranteed body count to fit all pocketbooks and budgets.

With the new models, you get a lot more bang for your buck, and with pan-wide stimulus packages, the suicide bomber market is making a slow return.

Alpo, Kibbles-And-Bits, and Little Friskies are forming a coalition to market used, or previously-owned suicide bombers, and a certain concerned demographic is simply eating it up . . .

Rotflmfao!
Do you write for Comedy Central by any chance?
+++rep
:icon_lol: