Religion and the Military

[rmw]

Just read an interesting article (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/washington/01church.html?ref=us) in the NY Times about religion in the military. The question is, how should the (US) military handle the matter of religion, vs. how it currently handles said matter? This issue cropped up into the media's consciousness not long ago when the US Air Force Academy found itself in the midst of another scandal (this one relatively benign compared to its previous rape/sexual harassment scandals) surrounding the treatment of non-Christian cadets. What are your thoughts on how the military should handle religion? IMO, religion is not something the military can ignore, as many troops are religious. However, I take exception that it seems that the military as an institution has crossed the line between the separation of church and state. Out of curiousity, how does the military in the different countries of our non-American members view religion?

[rmw]

In all seriousness however, USA has worse problems than Atheists not being treated well in the military right now.

QFT A failing economy, partisan sniping, two wars (plus a significant military presence overseas in "hot-spots"), a health care system that's a joke to the rest of the western world, an education that's viewed pretty much the same way--for the supposedly most powerful nation on the planet, we've managed to royally fuck things up for ourselves (and for the rest of the world when you look at the economy).

[tagnostic]

at no point in the Constitution are the word's 'separation of church and state', found, what it does say is Freedom of Religion, which is also Freedom from Religion, it also states that there will be no test of religion for citizenship and it's rights, (which includes the right to bear arms, not just personally but for your country) to me that would imply that any entity in total compliance with that is right back to, "don't ask, don't tell" or better yet
STFU and quit whining. Who really cares what mythology/worldview you've got when other people with a different mythology/worldview are trying to take you from conjectural to a literal argument?

just a thought

[sudikics]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
^There for reference

I don't think Atheists int he Army is the biggest problem right now, especially with this in place:

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_other_rules_against_atheists_and_agnostics

[zexx0r]

What difference does it make, ha?!

Like someone earlier said "fat programmer clicking his wireless mouse on his iMac to shut down Google" - "because the slim ones aren't good enough for the task?"

If we are Atheists, that means that we can't kill people like believers do? I mean, don't they kill in God's name, and we kill in Devil's name?? Just a thought...

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Why kill someone over a lack of faith? That's something a theist would do.

[winwun]

By the very nature of their missions, the branches have differing aspects of issues due to their respective members wanting to exercise their "religious freedoms".

The mission comes first -- if the participants feel that their religion comes first, then they should go to a nunnery/seminary or equivalent.

When I was in the military, in the late 40's and early 50's, non-denominational services were "encouraged" -- ("you don't have to go to church if you don't want to, but those who do not choose to go can muck out the stables and comb the mounts").

I like what one of our commanders in Iraq said of the enemy's belief system, "They believe that when they die gloriously in battle they go to heaven for their rewards. Our mission is to help them along."

[tagnostic]

concur totally,

when/if you get back to base,
you can worry about it,
meanwhile
follow operational orders
and attempt to survive them

[djura]

"their roof is on fire
we ain't got no water
let the mutherfucker burn
burn, mutherfucker, burn"

originally sang by a guy in US uniform with a cross around his neck. Although the song it self doesn't really capture that christian spirit, I suspect it would've been the same for any other religion, atheism included. War is about killing other people, setting shit on fire, stealing, raping and enforcing general psychotic behavior. Army, as far as I know, is about war all over the world.

[sam the moderately wize]

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Laws_and_other_rules_against_atheists_and_agnostics

Atheists cannot be Boy Scouts

Oh yes, they can.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

I know I was.

[rmw]

As far as the Boy Scouts go, I think because they are a private organization, they can bar you from entry based on religious beliefs, sexual orientation, etc. Doesn't mean they will, but they can. Seeing as how the military is a public organization, they cannot officially endorse one religion over another.

[winwun]

Saw in the paper where the military was "firing" some persons for violating the "DADT" protocols . . .

They are still coming to blows over this . . .

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Wouldn't a true Christian not join the Armed Forces, whatever?

[Loki]

Wouldn't a true Christian not join the Armed Forces, whatever?

Interesting point that.
I'm going to say they would join for a few reasons...

Ecclesiastes 3:8 says "a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

There's a load in the OT about war. I can't remember the passages off-hand and can't be arsed looking for them.
In the NT the entire Book of Mushroom (Revelation of John) is about the war between Satan and God.

There are more than enough holes in the ole bibble for you to get away with murder :D

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Ecclesiastes 3:8 says "a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace."

Ah, but Jesus said to always turn the other cheek (Whatever that means).


There's a load in the OT about war. I can't remember the passages off-hand and can't be arsed looking for them.

Touche. There's more than enough justification for the current Palestinian War (OH SNAP)


In the NT the entire Book of Mushroom (Revelation of John) is about the war between Satan and God.
But not between people? (Also, between some massive prostitute)


There are more than enough holes in the ole bibble for you to get away with murder :D
Sadly true.

I presume we're talking about a theological Christian here, not an Average believe-whatever-pastor-says Joe.

[Al Farabi]

Actually the ideology of jesus is very very different from the overall ideology of christianity.

And I don't think the average Christian is just a mindless sponge instantly and completely believing anything said by their pastor. I think almost all christians would be outraged if their pastor started preaching naziism, for example. To an extent I think people pick pastors that they already agree with.

[Loki]

Hi again Al, hope you're doing ok mate?

Actually the ideology of jesus is very very different from the overall ideology of christianity.

Erm...can you elaborate a bit please? That sounds like a self-contradiction to me.
The ideology of Jesus (or at least the bits that were written down, by other people, several decades after his death) are the very basis of Christianity. It is Christianity.

If the overall ideology of Christianity differs from that of its founder then, surely, it cannot be called Christianity?

[Al Farabi]

Hi again Al, hope you're doing ok mate?


Erm...can you elaborate a bit please? That sounds like a self-contradiction to me.
The ideology of Jesus (or at least the bits that were written down, by other people, several decades after his death) are the very basis of Christianity. It is Christianity.

If the overall ideology of Christianity differs from that of its founder then, surely, it cannot be called Christianity?

Well there's a lot to say on this subject, but the easiest example is the 10 commandments. Would an anti-materialist feel the need to make rules for owning property, apart from "avoid it?"

[Loki]

Well there's a lot to say on this subject, but the easiest example is the 10 commandments. Would an anti-materialist feel the need to make rules for owning property, apart from "avoid it?"

I'm sorry Al but I still don't get you.

I was saying that the definition of a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Christ - anyone who doesn't follow those teachings isn't a Christian.
Like me :D

[Al Farabi]

I'm sorry Al but I still don't get you.

I was saying that the definition of a Christian is someone who follows the teachings of the Christ - anyone who doesn't follow those teachings isn't a Christian.
Like me :D

Ah well in that case, I would like to posit that Buddhists are (perhaps unwittingly) more commonly christian than people who think they are christian.

If we define Christian as following the philosophy expressed by Christ, then they should be anti-materialist, pascifist, self-sacrificial, and totally unbiased. They would not need to go to church, and the goal would be universal love and absolute harmony with the world.

If we define it as following the philosophy laid out in the new testement, it is something quite different indeed.

[tagnostic]

true,
but you left out communist
remember Ananias and his wife

[Al Farabi]

good call. And communist!

[Dr Goofy Mofo]

I have been wanting to post this for a while but it has been so long since i read it.
http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3249

[Loki]

Ah well in that case, I would like to posit that Buddhists are (perhaps unwittingly) more commonly christian than people who think they are christian.

If we define Christian as following the philosophy expressed by Christ, then they should be anti-materialist, pascifist, self-sacrificial, and totally unbiased. They would not need to go to church, and the goal would be universal love and absolute harmony with the world.

If we define it as following the philosophy laid out in the new testement, it is something quite different indeed.

Holy Mohammed on a pogo-stick - I seem to be defending Christianity here :icon_eek:
Oh well, it is Sunday I suppose (and England just thrashed the Frogs at Rugby so I'm feeling a bit belligerent LOL)

Yeah - I know what you're getting at now - The eleventh commandment. Do as I say, not as I do.

However :icon_cool:...


If we define Christian as following the philosophy expressed by Christ, then they should be anti-materialist, pascifist, self-sacrificial, and totally unbiased.
Perhaps; but according to the Bible he did get a bit pissed-off with the money changers in the temple - he wasn't a sit down pacifist there?
Likewise, he's the guy that's going to lead the armies of heaven in the war against Satan - not your typical conscientious objector!

And he was a bit stroppy with old Legion (for we are many - Mark 5:9, Luke 8:30) - JC doesn't like demons - no love lost there.

Unbiased? John 6:40 "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day..."
In other words - believe in me otherwise you're fucked! That's a bit one-sided IMO

Non-materialistic? Yeah, I'll give you that. But only as it applies to earthly goods :D The gifts of the holy spirit (or Spook! as he likes to be known) are to be sought after.

And they don't need to go to church. Matt 18:20 "Where two or three(? or more) are gathered in my name - I will be there."


Yes - Christians follow the philosophy of Christ but the only information on that philosophy are the writings in the NT - to say that there's a difference between the NT philosophy and that of JC is wrong.

Unless you know Jesus personally? And that's where the problems start :D

(PS - I'm just arguing btw - you did say you enjoyed it :D I mean no offence.)

[tagnostic]

wow,
Loki,
get down with your bad self

[Will.]

Before one can examine the effects of Religion over Military, one must first examine the cultural impact of past religion and us. People over the years have become attached to the idea that this isn't it.. That there is some great mystery or a next life. The only true ideal to this is that no one knows for sure. One must also examine the history of Law over Religion. Dissecting the idea that most western law is Christianity/Catholic based with the ideal of purging evil from the masses. And yet furthermore, the religion that is being corresponded with military. - Will the prospector.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Why don't you post more posts like that Will.?

[Will.]

Because, I usually get cutoff by a pack of rabid dogs before hand.

[sengachi]

at no point in the Constitution are the word's 'separation of church and state', found, what it does say is Freedom of Religion, which is also Freedom from Religion,

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, ...
This means no making anything religious mandatory. Ever. Period.
Before someone says "But that means that you can't say no mandatory religion, because that's making a law about religion", to have that argument one would have to already have a law making aforementioned religious thing mandatory.