Execution and Murder

[Loki]

Stolen from a book of ethics I have...


"For if justice and righteousness perish, human life would no longer have any value in the world...
Who has committed murder must die."

The Philosophy of Law. Kant

Is the commission of murder different from the State execution of said murderer?

[rmw]

It seems hypocritical for the state to say "Killing is wrong and to drive that point home, we're going to kill you." Not to mention the problem of wrongful convictions. (Of course, there are some crimes that on a gut-level, make me think "That bastard needs to die.")

[Clark Nova]

State execution would be just about understandable (not acceptable) if it were possible for all the jurors to be completely unbiased and for every detail surrounding the crime to be known.

This will never happen and has never happened. Every execution has been a murder and anyone who believes otherwise is deluding themselves.

Its so funny though because of its bizarre concept that it can have a double standard within one society on society. For example
Execution of murderers in prisons keep the people in society safe.
When in reality a prison is part of the society, as is everyone involved in the execution. Its a murder for emotional respite (not justice, there is no justice because the crime cannot be undone) and a false sense of peace of mind.
I suppose the same thing could be said about the military.

[DrM]

The only time capitol punishment is justified is when:
the defendant will receive a life sentence and would rather die than spend life in prison.
The defendant is incapable of being assimilated back into society safety, and is therefore not worth the effort of keeping him alive. (kinda goes with the last one, only the government decides based on defendants actions.)
The Defendant is 100 percent guilty in the act of murdering more than one person. (like clark nova pointed out, this isnt gonna happen...)

[Loki]

Ah - Capital punishment is wrong but it is convenient :D

[rmw]

Ah - Capital punishment is wrong but it is convenient :D

Now you're getting it.

[Loki]

I've got that for years - what say you?

Consider the situation - your love has been murdered by a mentally ill person.

You want vengeance - as I would.
Do you demand it?

[rmw]

I've got that for years - what say you?

Consider the situation - your love has been murdered by a mentally ill person.

You want vengeance - as I would.
Do you demand it?

Hmm...Personally, I think locking a person up for the rest of their natural life is more of a punishment than the death penalty. Humans aren't designed to be caged.

[Will.]

We can't baby inmates though. No more than two square meals, eight hours of sleep, five inmates a cell, and no laundry on Sunday, though this is my belief, Jail is something that is to not make you want to do that again, yet we have a whole crap-load of repeat offenders? Get my drift?

Therefore the maximum sentence is life, (not death penalty, and look at Saskatchewan's' life sentencing laws.) Life In Prison, Parol in twenty years, if inmate is not fit for rehabilitation, another hearing will occur annually, every 20 years. till the verdict is turned.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

It seems hypocritical for the state to say "Killing is wrong and to drive that point home, we're going to kill you." Not to mention the problem of wrongful convictions. (Of course, there are some crimes that on a gut-level, make me think "That bastard needs to die.")

Exactly. Also, seeing as how there is the (likely) possibility that there is no afterlife, and that once you are dead, you are dead, it makes more sense to punish criminals by making them spend the rest of their life in prison, where they eventually die as a punishment.

[Loki]

But this person is mentally ill?

Say they got sentenced to an indefinite term in prison. Then, six months later scientists from Istanbul found a cure for the killer's illness.

Would you want them to be released? S/He's no longer a danger to anyone. Hell, not even the same person!

[Dayve]

I fully support the death penalty for the right reasons. It's logic... if you kill, you should be killed. Taking into consideration such things as self defense and whatnot.

I don't think it's given out often enough to be honest. There are hundreds of crimes where the death penalty would be justified in my opinion, not just murder. I mean, the world is overpopulated, and a lot of people are criminals. Solve 2 problems at once. Sentence all but the pettiest of crimes with death.

I know the above may sound like a joke but... i'm honestly being serious.

[rmw]

I fully support the death penalty for the right reasons. It's logic... if you kill, you should be killed. Taking into consideration such things as self defense and whatnot.

I don't think it's given out often enough to be honest. There are hundreds of crimes where the death penalty would be justified in my opinion, not just murder. I mean, the world is overpopulated, and a lot of people are criminals. Solve 2 problems at once. Sentence all but the pettiest of crimes with death.

I know the above may sound like a joke but... i'm honestly being serious.

Do you think the death penalty would be a deterrent if you're system were to be implemented?

[DrM]

the mentally ill situation is silly, they would not be placed in prison if they truly had no cheese upstairs. They would be placed in a mental institution until there is a cure for there disease.

[rmw]

the mentally ill situation is silly, they would not be placed in prison if they truly had no cheese upstairs. They would be placed in a mental institution until there is a cure for there disease.

Uh...are you familiar with how the US prison system actually works?

[Loki]

the mentally ill situation is silly, they would not be placed in prison if they truly had no cheese upstairs. They would be placed in a mental institution until there is a cure for there disease.

Erm...

But this person is mentally ill?

Say they got sentenced to an indefinite term in prison. Then, six months later scientists from Istanbul found a cure for the killer's illness.

Would you want them to be released? S/He's no longer a danger to anyone. Hell, not even the same person!
Substitute hospital for prison if you want to be picky :D

[rmw]

Here's a question: should be those convicted of a crime have an open-ended sentence, where the state can keep you for as long as they determine is necessary?

[Dayve]

Do you think the death penalty would be a deterrent if you're system were to be implemented?

The system i suggested has never been implemented properly. Madmen like Hitler and Stalin, and more recently quite a few African and middle-eastern leaders have implemented a sort of version of it, but they took it further than it needed to go, like killing people simply for things they say, or disagreeing with this or that policy.

But yeah, if implemented properly, it would work.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Do you think the death penalty would be a deterrent if you're system were to be implemented?

The system i suggested has never been implemented properly. Madmen like Hitler and Stalin, and more recently quite a few African and middle-eastern leaders have implemented a sort of version of it, but they took it further than it needed to go, like killing people simply for things they say, or disagreeing with this or that policy.

But yeah, if implemented properly, it would work.

The death penalty is no deterrant for crimes. That has been proven by the science.

[Dayve]

Even so, the death penalty is a lot better than the system of justice we have implemented right now, at least here in England. Rapists barely get a slap on the wrist, murderers barely get 15 years, pedophiles simply have to put their name on a register and then get let out the next day.

A better system would be... if we executed the rapists, murderers and pedophiles, right off the bat, (once there was enough evidence and proof, of course) so that money isn't spent keeping them in jail, and they can never ever come out of jail where there is a chance they'll simply commit the same crime again.

I also think life in jail should be made considerably more difficult for petty criminals too, like thieves and so on. Use them as slave labour for 12 hours a day doing the most physically demanding jobs around, feed them shit, no newspapers or TV, no cigarettes or other luxuries. Maybe then that teenager who's in jail for the 5th time for stealing a car will think about getting a job and making money the honest legal way.

God damn pansy system we have implemented now. Jail is little less than a 3-star hotel with average room service.

[Yiuel]

Dayve : What kind of system do you want. Justice is an overused word. I'd seperate two distinct functions of the system :

1. Taking care of criminals and other law-breaking people.
2. Taking care of victims and other wronged people.

Obviously, we are not talking about the second part. Actually, it seems most people usually don't think about that. What a pity, but let's go one that first part.

What do you want to do with your criminals?
- Get rid of them?
- Punish them?
- Have them pay back (either to society or the wronged people)?
- Rehabilitate them?

Would you distinguish some people, taking care of rehabilitating some, while others you would get rid of as soon as you can? Maybe a few things at the same time?

It seems that you obviously want to give them crap, punish them. Alogn side, you want to get rid of some kind of people, especially those who have cause violence on other people.

---

You're also using the extremist wager : nobody has implemented it fully, so someone who just implemented it partly will give us no results.

[...] all-or-nothing thinking generally goes with intellectual fraud. If a system is untestable, it's because its proponents fear testing. By contrast, I'm confident enough in liberal and scientific values that I'm happy to see even partial adoption. Even a little freedom is better than dictatorship. Even a little science is better than ideology.

Killing criminal will teach people not to commit crime? Yeah right. Funny how I feel to be speaking to some 夜神　月 (Light Yagami) freak, I sure would you never fall on a Death Note. But let us not speak of anime influences, and get on to the point.

Death does not teach criminals, this has been shown many times. You will have thrilled people doing crimes anyway (He won't catch me, will he?). You will have sick or distressed people. (I don't care, I'm fucking tired!) And what is a crime? There are obvious cases, like murdering. But is creating my own State one? (In France, it's a constitutional crime. And it seems to be the case at least unofficially in most places. I would disagree easily.) Also, you are prone to make some mistakes.

If killing people is so good an idea, why is the US more crime-ridden than Canada. Or better, within Canada, why is Quebec City a lot less criminal than Regina, while they're both quite the same size. Criminality does not seem to be correlated to capital punishment at all. Indeed, it is more related to how socially connected you are. Japan is relatively highly socially connected, lower crime rates. So is Quebec city, but not Montreal, and even less Regina. And what about the US, where living alone with many social connections is the epitome of life? Higher crime rates. Gee!

(Indeed, Japan is a place where capital punishment is used pretty much like in Texas. Yet, crime rates between Tokyo and Texas are very different, in Tokyo they are pretty low. Difference is socialization.)

(Fun fact : Crime rates in New York City fell abruptly after 9/11. Nobody was killed except innocent people (we do not know if there was any criminal there, after all, but let us think so, and so is it thought). What happened? People were brought together, some kind of socialization was done, where New Yorkers suddenly cared more about each other. Big surprise, isn't it?)

But all this wont lead anywhere, I know. Because "the ideologue can be caustic about everything that has actually been tried, and which has inevitably fallen short of perfection" (from the same page, not far from the other quote).

---

I must say that even if, emotionally, punishing them seems (and indeed is) so satisfying, I'm not sure it is the right way to do it. Indeed, I'd rather have people pay back for what they did rather than punish them. Now, alongside, I would try to get rid of those who do not want to comply with simple rules, and I would give a chance to those who would like to try. However, in this case, I would make it conditional to paying back, especially to the wronged people. Ultimately, punishment would only be an afterthought. If I would truly have to get rid of someone, I'm pretty sure making that person outlaw and decreeing he has no right within my State would be enough punishment, put it's nothing more the emotional satisfaction, not justice.

Also, you're system is not considering sick people. We know now that the brain itself can be sick, and cause delusional or erratic behaviors. Sure, mental disability defence is all too common today, but there are things to be considered here as well. While I would try to even have a sick person pay back for what he may have done, when the person is sick, there has been the entire society not being able to detect that sickness. So, nothing is that easy.

(Also, as you can see, I place a lot more emphasis on taking care of the victim. I don't care what you do to the criminal. He did crap, let him clean it up if his willing. I want to help the victim, and make sure they'll have a life after being wronged. It is to me seven times, or seventy times seven times more important, to quote the infamous.)

rmw : This is the hardest question, because closed-ended sentence does not do the job, but open-ended ones are highly subjective sometimes. But, between both, I would prefer a closed-ended sentence for the "paying back" part, while being open-ended about social exclusion/reinsertion. As for "punishment" itself, well, I don't care much, I don't it should even be sought as a part of a justice system.

[Dayve]

What do i want to do with my criminals? Simple really. Murderers, rapists and pedophiles, immediate execution after being proven guilty.

Thieves, fraudsters, and other petty criminals, depending on the severity of the petty crime, a few months or back breaking hard labour in a prison that serves shit food and has no luxury whatsoever. A place that nobody on earth would EVER want to go back to. Then, upon leaving, a warning that a further crime will be punished exactly the same, except this time the sentence will double.

Third strike, take them straight out of court and shoot them through the ear.

Honestly, society is a mess, this pansy ass way of dealing with criminals is doing no good to anybody. They go in to prison, they have a real easy time, then they come out and go back to a life of crime. I'd propose a year long trial of my way of doing things and see if anything changes. If nothing changes, then i'll be damned, fair enough, somebody else can think of something. And even if i was wrong, at least a good few thousand criminals will have been executed throughout the year, and the world would be a slightly better place for decent, law abiding folk like me.

[Yiuel]

Ok. But I know I wouldn't like to be part of that experiment. :)

If you want a quick reason why I wouldn't be part of it, is I think your missing the point, as if making laws and punishment harsher will change people. At best, they'll fear you for being oppressive, they'll be afraid, but they will not be behaving themselves for good reasons, just because they fear being killed. No better than God, really. (The Pun is Intended here.)

Also, you're not adressing the reasons why most crimes are committed in the first place, so your system if pretty useless : exasperated people will still commit crimes done by exasperated people, they don't care about justice or social consequences : society has failed them. Your people is doomed to fall into the same logic, no matter how harsh your punishments will be. Charia-style laws exist exactly because they are not addressing the right problems. If you want that, go for it, but it won't make your society better.

Think of ancient Iceland and its utter lack of capital punishment. Think of Saguenay, a fairly large town in the country where I live, with the same population as present-day Iceland, where a murder is so exceptional that when there is one occuring, it will be discussed for weeks. No capital punishment there either. I don't think that you're going the right way with your reasoning. You're just fooling yourself because you think that since you are afraid of that, you'd stop anything. I have better reasons than fearing a punishment to not commit crimes, and that's what they had in Iceland back then and in Saguenay today.

Society might be a mess, but you are out of the track to set it back right.

[sudikics]

What do i want to do with my criminals? Simple really. Murderers, rapists and pedophiles, immediate execution after being proven guilty.

Thieves, fraudsters, and other petty criminals, depending on the severity of the petty crime, a few months or back breaking hard labour in a prison that serves shit food and has no luxury whatsoever. A place that nobody on earth would EVER want to go back to. Then, upon leaving, a warning that a further crime will be punished exactly the same, except this time the sentence will double.

Third strike, take them straight out of court and shoot them through the ear.

Honestly, society is a mess, this pansy ass way of dealing with criminals is doing no good to anybody. They go in to prison, they have a real easy time, then they come out and go back to a life of crime. I'd propose a year long trial of my way of doing things and see if anything changes. If nothing changes, then i'll be damned, fair enough, somebody else can think of something. And even if i was wrong, at least a good few thousand criminals will have been executed throughout the year, and the world would be a slightly better place for decent, law abiding folk like me.
I disagree strongly with your system, mainly because I know a guy who's just been unlucky (was chased by a police officer b/c the officer thought he was stealing soemthing --> officer trips, skins knee --> guy charged with violent assault --> WTF?) and would have to be "shot through the ear" by your system.

Justice is not black and white. Your system is far too extreme. One incorrect trial, one innocent death, and the system's wrong. You can't make mistakes. A system must allow for mistakes.

[DrM]

Yah dude, Im gonna laugh when you stand on trial and get a guilty verdict despite you being completely innocent. Then i will laugh as they shoot you in the mouth because of a misunderstanding.

[rmw]

A system must allow for mistakes...

...of the accused. That's a major problem with the death penalty: if they execute the wrong person, the most the state can do afterwards is say "Oops, we've made a mistake."

[sudikics]

...of the accused. That's a major problem with the death penalty: if they execute the wrong person, the most the state can do afterwards is say "Oops, we've made a mistake."
Yes, that's what I meant. I should've clarified.

Bonus sarcastic answer:
No, rmw, not of the accused! Everyone makes mistakes, and the people who condemn the accused to death by being shot through the ear totally know what they're doing sometimes!

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Stolen from a book of ethics I have...


"For if justice and righteousness perish, human life would no longer have any value in the world...
Who has committed murder must die."

The Philosophy of Law. Kant

Is the commission of murder different from the State execution of said murderer?

Yes, but it's still fucked up.

Unless you can show me a perfect judicial system, then I am opposed to capital punishment.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

What do i want to do with my criminals? Simple really. Murderers, rapists and pedophiles, immediate execution after being proven guilty.


I take it you've never been hauled though the gears of the justice system.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

It'll grind you up and spit you out a shell of your former self, whether you go to prison or not.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

It'll grind you up and spit you out a shell of your former self, whether you go to prison or not.

Tell me about it. I was falsely accused of a number of felonies some years back...fortunately, I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth, and was acquited. The fact that the case had no merit whatsoever, however, did not stop it from costing me $13,000 in legal fees, and two and a half YEARS of anxiety (One nice thing DAs do is hold endless hearings until you run out of money to pay your lawyer. Doesn't that make you just want to eat stars and shit stripes? Why do you think I have such a hard on for trashing society? They took a good citizen and made ME. LOL.).

And what I saw going on around me was a travesty. People got exactly as much justice as they could afford, and anyone who thinks you're innocent until proven guilty is a naive fool. People are routinely sent to prison for the crime of being too poor to afford a lawyer, because 7 out of 12 people believe the police wouldn't bother you if you weren't guilty of SOMETHING.

So this Dayve jackass can go piss up a rope. I hope he gets fucking nicked for something he didn't do.

[rmw]

People got exactly as much justice as they could afford, and anyone who thinks you're innocent until proven guilty is a naive fool.

And that's the problem with the justice system. It works for those who can find some way to pay their way out of it. It also helps if you're white--even if you are convicted, chances are your sentence will be lighter than that of a black or hispanic.

[Sister Faith]

Tell me about it. I was falsely accused of a number of felonies some years back...fortunately, I could afford a lawyer with 5 rows of teeth, and was acquited. The fact that the case had no merit whatsoever, however, did not stop it from costing me $13,000 in legal fees, and two and a half YEARS of anxiety (One nice thing DAs do is hold endless hearings until you run out of money to pay your lawyer. Doesn't that make you just want to eat stars and shit stripes? Why do you think I have such a hard on for trashing society? They took a good citizen and made ME. LOL.).

And what I saw going on around me was a travesty. People got exactly as much justice as they could afford, and anyone who thinks you're innocent until proven guilty is a naive fool. People are routinely sent to prison for the crime of being too poor to afford a lawyer, because 7 out of 12 people believe the police wouldn't bother you if you weren't guilty of SOMETHING.

So this Dayve jackass can go piss up a rope. I hope he gets fucking nicked for something he didn't do.

THIS (http://www.fulvuedrive-in.com/cover/APPLAUSE.jpg)

13 thou? You got off cheap my friend!

[Daruko]

Scary troof ITT. Do you think it'll ever change? I always liked Robert Anton Wilson's idea of creating a state where people convicted of violent crime can just go live and create some level of their own society, and non-violent crimes would never be dealt with by any form of imprisonment.

[The Laughing Man]

I always liked Robert Anton Wilson's idea of creating a state where people convicted of violent crime can just go live and create some level of their own society, and non-violent crimes would never be dealt with by any form of imprisonment.

That is fucking retarded.

If I'm understanding this, it would be like a society of violent criminals, right? What should be done with their children? Or are you a genetic determinist?

[Daruko]

That is fucking retarded.

If I'm understanding this, it would be like a society of violent criminals, right? What should be done with their children? Or are you a genetic determinist?
I hadn't thought about children. Maybe rapists and killers should have to get fixed. Does considering that idea make me a genetic determinist?

There's more to the idea than my slight abstraction of it. I'll have to see if I can find it, and elaborate in greater depth.

What would be better than this or the current system? What alternatives are there?

[The Laughing Man]

I hadn't thought about children. Maybe rapists and killers should have to get fixed.

Could a society function without skilled young people?

What would be better than this or the current system? What alternatives are there?

I don't know what alternatives there are, but I do know that they are all flawed.

[Daruko]

Could a society function without skilled young people?
I don't understand the correlation. Wouldn't the non-rapists and non-killers be presumably still having children? Plus, think of all the non-violent people who wouldn't be rotting in a cell right now, requiring billions in tax dollars to keep them there, and even more to get them back out. All of those people would be acquiring skills and able to contribute to society.

I don't know what alternatives there are, but I do know that they are all flawed.
I think just about everyone ITT recognizes the problems. I'd love to read some fresh solutions. It's very freaky to think about how many innocent people are suffering as a result of our current "criminal justice" systems.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

And that's the problem with the justice system. It works for those who can find some way to pay their way out of it. It also helps if you're white--even if you are convicted, chances are your sentence will be lighter than that of a black or hispanic.

169% troof.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

THIS (http://www.fulvuedrive-in.com/cover/APPLAUSE.jpg)

13 thou? You got off cheap my friend!

The lawyer was a family friend. That doesn't include the constant trips from Arizona to Illinois.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Could a society function without skilled young people?


RAW's society would just result in cannibalism anyway.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I don't understand the correlation. Wouldn't the non-rapists and non-killers be presumably still having children? Plus, think of all the non-violent people who wouldn't be rotting in a cell right now, requiring billions in tax dollars to keep them there, and even more to get them back out. All of those people would be acquiring skills and able to contribute to society.

Actually, they'd be slave labor or food.

[Will.]

Lest we forget Paradigms theory of the repeat offender.

So killing someone who killed may or may not be wrong? Who is to decide, what should be done is a search of remorse. Does the offender know what they did was wrong, and why. And there are ways to differentiate between someone who is falsely showing these conditions, such as chronological recounting of events. A normal non murderous mind would instantly go into shock with the sight of a dead man, had they done it, they will remember.
Secondly, observation outside question periods, do they commonly show signs of regret? Final point, the economic conservatism, The death penalty levees the cost of keeping an inmate alive and well for 20 or more years, lessening the strain on the economy, though they do produce such goods, as clothing, license plates, and in some more advanced institutes automotive parts, the demands for these have decreased over the years.
So fry em up babes, I like egg wit my bacon.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Lest we forget Paradigms theory of the repeat offender.

So killing someone who killed may or may not be wrong? Who is to decide, what should be done is a search of remorse. Does the offender know what they did was wrong, and why. And there are ways to differentiate between someone who is falsely showing these conditions, such as chronological recounting of events. A normal non murderous mind would instantly go into shock with the sight of a dead man, had they done it, they will remember.
Secondly, observation outside question periods, do they commonly show signs of regret? Final point, the economic conservatism, The death penalty levees the cost of keeping an inmate alive and well for 20 or more years, lessening the strain on the economy, though they do produce such goods, as clothing, license plates, and in some more advanced institutes automotive parts, the demands for these have decreased over the years.
So fry em up babes, I like egg wit my bacon.


I hope you get wrongfully convicted.

[Will.]

I hope you get wrongfully convicted.

I hope you choke on bacon.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

I hope you choke on bacon.

Not likely. I can't have bacon anymore. :(

[Dr Goofy Mofo]

Not likely. I can't have bacon anymore. :(

And pigs have never been happier...but seriously that is sad.

[Daruko]

And pigs have never been happier...but seriously that is sad.
and funny.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

and funny.

I'll be laughing harder when you turn into Christopher Reeves, bitch. :icon_lol:

[Dr Goofy Mofo]

I'll be laughing harder when you turn into Christopher Reeves, bitch. :icon_lol:

*snort*

[Will.]

I'll be laughing harder when you turn into Christopher Reeves, bitch. :icon_lol:


O.o Its better than being Ben Afleck, bitch.

[The Good Reverend Roger]

*snort*

I prefer to think of myself as an artist.

[Will.]

O.o... Artist, don't make me laugh, that implies you ar articulate and we all know that is a crock

[The Good Reverend Roger]

O.o... Artist, don't make me laugh, that implies you ar articulate and we all know that is a crock


You're boring me, Will. Get your shit together.

[Will.]

You're boring me, Will. Get your shit together.

O.o that has no relevance or meaning, pity....

[The Good Reverend Roger]

O.o that has no relevance or meaning, pity....

That's it, you're fired.

[Will.]

That's it, you're fired.

Go ahead dead man walking, you've threatened to Alter an outstanding HA logo, you're as good as dead. :icon_lol:

[The Good Reverend Roger]

Go ahead dead man walking, you've threatened to Alter an outstanding HA logo, you're as good as dead. :icon_lol:


Scary! :icon_lol:

[Will.]

:icon_lol: I don't know what your laughing about. but must be funny