orwell or huxley

[fomenter]

http://fatpita.net/images/image%20%281952%29.jpg

[tagnostic]

thats excellent
I think its a combination of the two,
using the trivialities to drown out the truth
and those who even try to get beyond the trash
are mocked by those who are afraid to admit theres more

[fomenter]

i agree

i think there are variations in degree depending on where you live as well, in England with the cameras watching you and the PC anti terrorism laws saying you cant photograph the police or exercise free speech in certain areas they lean Orwellian. the USA and its endless obsession with crap, buying crap, watching crap, eating crap etc are leaning toward Huxley, but they both have aspects of both going on..,with

[tagnostic]

I think that for years network television was part of the dumbing down of America,
the least common denominator, it scares the shit out of me to watch it ( I don't)
and realize the decline of our civilisation but it's happening before our eyes and the
ones that buy into it are the Least Common Denominator, the majority want the
soma, for awhile I thought the net would make a difference, until it was infested with
spammers, you tube and to me the most vile and insidious infection there is, all things
wiki, not only does it cater to the self deluding multitude of soma addicts, they are allowed to control it and shout down any voice that disagrees with the majority, the only place's left for true freedom of information are the Pirates and the Open Source Communities,
and those are under attack both openly and subtley, I'm in mourning for Pirates Bay now,
for what it will become, what they will do to assimilate it and snuff out the free independent spirit that founded it....

sorry, feeling a bit morbid, been following world news to closely

[fomenter]

network TV is definitely a dumb down device there still are a few entertaining things to watch and being entertained is not inherently harmful but there is a lot of lowest common denominator entertainment that i wont look at (a majority of TV). the Internet can still work both ways i think i am smarter and better informed since i started spending time on the net but i was smart and went looking for stimulating (ha ha intended) things on the net there is also an endless supply of lowest common denominator material on the net too.

hopefully the pirate mentality and the freedom of information supporters can stay ahead of the rest and keep a space open for freedom

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Orwell was primarily writing about Stalinist and Authoritarian regimes. From his time period, no-one knew whether Communism or Capitalism would triumph, so both of these scenarios seemed plausible. Ofc, post-1989, it's become clear that Huxley has been proved right, with the exception of places like North Korea, Burma etc.

Regarding Tag's points, I think a lot of the problem boils down to a lowering of standards in the west, as our basic desires of food, water shelter etc have certainly all been met and the majority of us are content with a few luxuries, rather than holding their government to account (I'm aware that this sounds a bit NWO-ish, but I swear, this has nothing to do with that). For example, look at Iran. You had students out on the streets of Tehran, willing to die in an attempt to have their vote respected. And in the West? The most political action students will get up to is either putting up posters calling for the Marxist Revolution (Although strangely, you never see those guys actually preparing for it) or protesting either a rise in alcohol tax or a rise in tuition fees (Free university education for all happens to be the middle class's greatest subsidy; coincidence much?) The vast majority, except maybe the political scientists, do not vote, except for Big Brother (How's that for an omen?)

EDIT: Related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jETv3NURwLc

[DrM]

This whole thread is win. Glad to see that this site hasnt died.

[Tsar Phalanxia]

Well make it more win by contributing something.

[DrM]

During the cold war it was in the middle.
Right now, its more Huxley leaning.
Eventually, Huxley will win out.

[tagnostic]

huxley can only win long term
masked as orwell
otherwise the suppression
of revolts would reach
deminishing returns
you have to coat
oppression with alot
of candy to get the sheeple
to eat it as a steady diet

[fomenter]

did you reverse the names? or am i just to tired to read straight?

[tagnostic]

four score and 7 hours ago i've been at work
since then I've been communing with Mickey's
there may have been intermittant episodes
of sedation dyslexia...
will reboot shortly

[M3Lk0r]

both are handcuffs. Aldous is the furry pink handcuffs.

RE Aldous: I can see the government/corporate hatcheries popping up in the next few decades. designer babies with manufactured mutation. reeks of disaster.

[rmw]

RE Aldous: I can see the government/corporate hatcheries popping up in the next few decades. designer babies with manufactured mutation. reeks of disaster.

Considering you can tweak your unborn child's DNA to make it less susceptible to certain diseases, it's only a matter of time before some "entrepreneurial soul" catches onto this, and realizes that people will pay big bucks for the "perfect" child. Scary, scary thought...

[tagnostic]

we're doing it to pets
we don't treat children as well
it will be just as disastrous

(good to cya m3lkor, cya at the cat)

[Daruko]

The op here is GOLD. Thanks much.

Also, I agree its a bit o both.

[Al Farabi]

Plato would argue that we are no different than we have ever been - lost in the illusion of the world presented to our eyes. The man blinded by the trivia which passes for mass media is no different than the prisoner in plato's allegory of the cave, mistaking the dancing shadows on the wall for the world. Our seemingly steady slip toward the Brave New World scenario is just an illustration of his prediction in The Republic that democracy will inevitably fall into tyranny.

Sooooo time for the reign of the philosopher king? I am willing to carry the burden...if nobody else...uh...wants to....

[tagnostic]

love the republic,
but the basic premise is flawed,
anyone given that kind of authority
is going to abuse it. not to mention
the succession, it will inevitably become
a dynasty with not necessarily the best
philosopher king, just a birthright and we
know how that works out....

(hehehe I'd vote for you Al, I sure wouldn't want it)

[rmw]

In Brave New World, a war was needed to get people to comply to the tyranny of this new order. As it still stood, some Alphas were forcibly relocated to remote islands because of heretical thoughts and actions. And, as Mustapha Mond pointed out, if it weren't for those islands where these heretics could be exiled to, safely away from society, they would surely be put to death. What Huxley was showing, that no matter how pleasant one's life is, if it is a forced pleasantness, there will always be those who are unwilling to give up their free will (at least, if one isn't so conditioned to even question it).

But, given the various distractions and pleasures we have today, and which will undoubtedly become better as the years progress, do you think that a war would be needed to turn society into something similar to Huxley's frightening vision, or that people will face exile or death for going against the grain? Will people merely "progress" into a state of ignorant bliss, where soma and iPods will replace any need for forced happiness?

[DutchPastaGuy]

It was many years ago that I read those two books (buh, feeling old here). But if I might shock some here just a little bit: I didn't find everything about Brave New World detestable. So much of of it I thought worrying prospects, but not all.

Call me creepy if you like.

[tagnostic]

if he wrote it today
it would be
"scared new world"
full of sheep looking for a bbq
and proud to be the guest of honor

[Melissa]

How could they have known just how the technical advances would be used against the...