QWERTY

[Nanashi]

Why are we still teaching QWERTY to kids in school?(or in general.) It was created to intentionally slow down typists to keep type writers from jamming.

It seems like a keyboard layout, like DVORAK, that increases efficiency, decreases harm to the typist (reduces Repetitive Strain Injury by lowering hand movement by 70%, and finger travel by 37%), and is more sensible and a much better option.

And, yeah, most people don't want to switch because they learned to type with QWERTY (I myself, like most people, am an extremely fluent touch-typist) and don't want to go through the hassle of re-learning to type, but I don't see why we can't start teaching the new generation a clearly better style of typing.

But, hey, I'm still waiting for metric system to be taught as the main system of measurement in the US. :P

[Nameless]

From what I've been heard there have been studies done that showed no particular gain in terms of typing speed from either keyboard with equally proficiant typists.

[growntree]

I guess it is just due to the most common type of keyboard being QWERTY and that other types cost a lot more.

[Nameless]

I guess it is just due to the most common type of keyboard being QWERTY and that other types cost a lot more.

That is a large part of it, yes. Since everybody uses it, everybody else uses it because everyone uses it and teaches everybody else to use it. It's a vicious cycle.

Kind of like Microsoft, really.

[growntree]

It would be quite easy for one of the large PC manufacturers (HP, Dell, etc) to sway users towards a new keyboard layout by giving 10% discount for ordering a laptop with a non QWERTY layout, just to get the ball rolling as-it-were.

The reason I say laptop, is once you've got one with a non-QWERTY layout, you'd be more inclined to use it as you couldn't change it as easily as you could on a desktop PC.

[Nanashi]

Even if speed is taken out as a factor completely studies still show that DVORAK reduces RSI (carpal tunnel, etc) massivly. I think all people going into a field where you need to type should be retrained in DVORAK, personally.

Also, you don't need to buy a new keyboard to type in dvorak. You can change any keyboard on any computer/OS to use the dvorak keymap with a "qwerty" keyboard. ( http://www.dvorak-keyboards.com/Change_qwerty_keyboard_to_Dvorak_in_30_seconds.htm ) You just might get confused when you are trying to learn when you press "f" and get a "u".

I use a keyboard with no keys printed on it ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8396/ ) so I don't even have to pop keys out to help in memorization.

Personally, I'm retraining because I think it's horribly geeky. But it couldn't hurt for my future, being that I am working my way through a BA in Comp. Sci.. :x

[SirRuben]

*Edit by myself* I'm a retard that should read posts thoroughly before post :p

[Nanashi]

Yepp. They sell actual DVORAK keyboards, but the dvorak keymap works with normal QWERTY keyboards. ( see last post about how to switch )

The actual lay-out is this: http://www.dvorak-keyboards.com/Image5.gif

[Nameless]

=I use a keyboard with no keys printed on it ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8396/ ) so I don't even have to pop keys out to help in memorization.

AWESOME. :) I've heard about blank keyboard before, but I've never actually seen one or known anyone to ever use one.

[growntree]

Nanashi wrote:
=I use a keyboard with no keys printed on it ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8396/ ) so I don't even have to pop keys out to help in memorization.


AWESOME. Smile I've heard about blank keyboard before, but I've never actually seen one or known anyone to ever use one.

OMG. I have enough trouble when the keys have letters on, My typing speed would be down to 2 WPM (Words per month) by the time I´ve figured out where the required letters are.

[Nameless]

Nanashi wrote:
=I use a keyboard with no keys printed on it ( http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8396/ ) so I don't even have to pop keys out to help in memorization.


AWESOME. Smile I've heard about blank keyboard before, but I've never actually seen one or known anyone to ever use one.

OMG. I have enough trouble when the keys have letters on, My typing speed would be down to 2 WPM (Words per month) by the time I´ve figured out where the required letters are.

Once you've been typing for a while the actually positions of the keys become second nature. When I'm typing - like right now for instance - I don't actually think about the positions of the keys or anything like that... it's just subconscious, and I'm not the faster typer around. If somebody asked me where a particular letter was on a keyboard, while I was not at a keyboard, it would actually take me a second or two to consciously remember, whereas while typing I just... press it.

It would be fun to have a blank keyboard just to show off your typing skills (but no more so than just typing with your eyes closed or something) but maybe not such a good thing for new typists. :)

[Nanashi]

Hehe. I use it to mess with my family when they try and use my PC. :twisted: And of course the horribly geeky factor. :)

[Nameless]

But on the down side you can't do the usual trick to poor typists of swapping letters around because THEY'RE ALL BLANK ANYWAY.

[Nanashi]

Hehe. "I'm pressing 'R'!! Look!"

[Carnifex]

I love how its actually hard for us to think where the keys are when we are not at a keyboard. Try this though, when you are sitting at a desk or something jst type out a sentence or something on the desk (just hittin wood with your fingers pretending a keyboard is there), and watch as you instinctivly go to where the keys actually are. Its cool.

[lg3]

Actually im quite happy to say that i can type 72 words a minute on a QWERTY keyboard, so it doesnt slow me down at all...

[Nanashi]

As can I, but have fun with that carpal tunnel in the future. :P

[SyBerWoLff]

I love how its actually hard for us to think where the keys are when we are not at a keyboard. Try this though, when you are sitting at a desk or something jst type out a sentence or something on the desk (just hittin wood with your fingers pretending a keyboard is there), and watch as you instinctivly go to where the keys actually are. Its cool.

Yea I love it, people are like "wheres this key?" And i just point on the table to where it would be and then they look at a picture and their all freaked out its fun!

I've wanted to switch to a DVORAK keyboard for a while now but Im just afraid that ill get used to DVORAK and since everything else is in QWERTY Ill be so screwed in school! MAybe I can get one of those fold-up keyboard in DVORAK and just swap it in the school's computers, or get a DVORAK layover for keyboard and sqitch the schools keyboards to DVORAK.... that would be fun to watch come report time!

I type at 120 words per minute on a QWERTY and i'm already starting to get Carpel Tunnel (at age 16). Check out this site about the fastest typist ever recorded, and it was on a DVORAK. http://whitman.syr.edu/facstaff/dvorak/blackburn.html

AS far as I've seen the fastest QWERTY typist is 170wpm for ONE Minute... I want to break this record :P That is my life's goal!

[Googler]

Really in my opinion I think that they should just switch all the school and public computers over and be done with it, there no better time to act then the present.

[Alice Shade]

Well, switching to DVORAK just like that is going to be tough to accomplish, even when everyone knows about carpal syndrome...

Typical user thinks "Oh, I`m not typing too much, carpal shouldn`t be much problem, anyways". And since QWERTY is "normal" keyboard, most people would rather get it, then DVORAK.

Discount could`ve helped, if keyboards were expencive. Then a discount on DVORAK ones could be deciding factor... But I sincerely doubt that any of the notebook manufacturers would ever give enough of discount to persuade people to get DVORAK-layout notebooks.

Not to mention, that there`ll undisputedly be a wizehead to buy discount DVORAK ones, rearrange keys back to QUERTY, switch over the layout in OS, and sell them like "normal" ones.

I think that ergonomically-safe keyboards will introduce themselves without additional assistance, eventually. People do become pretty reasonable, when their hands start to ache, after all.

[Nameless]

I don't really think all keyboard should be switched to DVORAK, but neither should people be forced to use QWERTY. It's my belief that governments should fund schools to ensure that they have an equal representation of keyboards, OSs, software etc. so people can make their own choice. (And the same with religion too. Instead of students having to attend in-school chapel services of religious education, they should have the chance to spend that time on the Church of Google website! :P )

[rzm61]

Sorry to bump an old thread. However instead of starting a new one I figured I would just point out a few things....


Wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvorak_Simplified_Keyboard). Wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_input_methods#Japanese_keyboards). Wrong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTZ).


Sure enough in checking these wiki's
I found a few interesting things I would like to point out.

Dvorak Simplified Keyboard's wiki said this:
Although the Dvorak Simplified Keyboard ("DSK") has so far failed to displace the QWERTY standard

Which I believe I mentioned that "QWERTY" was technically the industry standard. I know it isn't really because there are other layouts out there in the world obviously. However Dvorak doesn't even seem too popular on its own wiki.

Moving on!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Japanese_keyboards.jpg
Look at the key layout
"QWERTY"

and now that leaves us to QWERTZ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTZ)

The QWERTZ or QWERTZU keyboard is a widely used computer and typewriter keyboard layout that is mostly used in German-speaking regions. The name comes from the first six letters at the top left of the keyboard: Q, W, E, R, T, and Z. It is pronounced either the same as "quartz" or to rhyme with "squirts".

It differs from the QWERTY layout by interchanging the "Z" and "Y" keys — both because "Z" is a much more common letter than "Y" in German (the latter seldom appearing except in borrowed words), and because "T" and "Z" often appear next to each other in the German language. Part of the keyboard is adapted to include local umlauts, such as ä, ö, ü, etc. Some special symbols also have a different place, and the Ctrl key is called Strg.

Seeing how I don't speak German this is quite useless to me, however the only difference between QWERTZ and QWERTY is simply changing a few keys.

Needless to say, I stick by my statement that the "QWERTY" is mostly the industry standard when it comes to computer keyboards.

Thank you for your time. :D

[RealityRipple]

I use a Plum (http://plum.bz/), myself. I honestly love it above all other input devices.

[rzm61]

Hmm.
This is the first time I have ever heard or even seen the Plum layout.

Neat.

[RealityRipple]

http://blog.realityripple.com/2008/01/plum-happy-sorta.html

[rzm61]

I always hated QWERTY keyboards with only a single wide backspace

I know what you mean, however with my keyboard my backspace key is as small as all the others. My enter/return key however is the biggest one. I've hit it by mistake a few times. That can get quite annoying. Either way nice blog entry.

[RealityRipple]

Ya, that style keyboard was just evil... Now that I've learned PLUM, though, I don't even remember how to type on QWERTY. It seems so fumbly and annoying. No wonder old people don't like it...

[rzm61]

Well QWERTY was started on typewriters an all, because they tried to minimalize the effect of the hammers hitting one another. So QWERTY was the best set up they found. If I am not mistaken.

Either way its good to see that there are other lay outs. However seeing how I have used the QWERTY set-up all my life this is the most comfortable for me...but again, this is the only set-up I have used....

[RealityRipple]

Paper jams as well.. And I had used a QWERTY since I was two years old. I learned the basics of a PLUM in a week. In a month and a half, I was back to my old typing speed of 90 words a minute. Now I'm at 110.

[rzm61]

Wow.
Thats pretty impressive.

I don't even know my WPM count.

On a side note, insomnia sucks....

[Wallsy]

Seeing how I don't speak German this is quite useless to me, however the only difference between QWERTZ and QWERTY is simply changing a few keys.

What do you think a keyboard layout is? If you switch some keys around, it's a different layout. If you have different characters (as the Japanese one does) it's a different layout. UK keyboards have a different layout, because they have additional symbols.

In fact, even among American QWERTY keyboards there's more than one layout. For a start there's the current standard 104 key layout, which includes Two [Windows] keys and a [Menu] key, there's the standard 101 key layout which is identical but without the aforementioned keys, there's a layout where the function keys are on the right instead of at the top, there are variances in the sizes of the [\], [Enter], [ ], [Caps Lock] and [Backspace] keys. Then there're the old US 101 key boards which are technically only have 98 different keys because some are duplicates.

And what's more, many layouts are interchangeable. You can use a US QWERTY 101 as a UK Dvorak 101 if you want. As long as it has the right number of keys, it doesn't matter what those keys have printed on them. The computer can't tell.


Wallsy.

[sudikics]

:icon_rolleyes: Wallsy, Wallsy, can you stop up your arrogance and stop entering discussions with immeadiately putting down the other person? You're not accomplishing anything good, and don't think no one has noticed your absence from the off-topic thread rants.

[rzm61]

In fact, even among American QWERTY keyboards there's more than one layout. For a start there's the current standard 104 key layout, which includes Two [Windows] keys and a [Menu] key, there's the standard 101 key layout which is identical but without the aforementioned keys, there's a layout where the function keys are on the right instead of at the top, there are variances in the sizes of the [\], [Enter], [ ], [Caps Lock] and [Backspace] keys. Then there're the old US 101 key boards which are technically only have 98 different keys because some are duplicates.


Wallsy.

A few extra keys doesn't really change the whole layout.
It just gives you a few extra options. By adding a Windows key or a Menu key, that wont change the QWERTY Layout. It just as I said adds a few extra keys.

[Wallsy]

A few extra keys doesn't really change the whole layout.

I never said it did. I said it's a different layout and it is. You can choose not to believe that, but you are wrong and you will continue to be wrong.


Wallsy.

[rzm61]

Again, the number of keys doesnt change the QWERTY layout.
It just adds a few extra options.

Remember wallsy I am in a magical land. Therefor I am not wrong. ;)

[Wallsy]

Again, the number of keys doesnt change the QWERTY layout.

It doesn't change the layout of the letters. It changes the layout of the keyboard. Did it take practice to become this stupid or is it a natural gift?


Yes, but it was a modern American keyboard.

First you said it was an old one, now you say it was modern. Maybe you mean something different by "old" to what I do.

Nevertheless, if it was a modern keyboard then I can only conclude that you are wrong about the connections and it just looked it had no AltGr key. The correct method for testing would be to install a keyboard layout in your OS that includes AltGr and see if the keyboard works, but it's probably a bit late for that now.

However, you could do that with the keyboard you're using now. My bet is you won't though, because then you might have to face the fact that you are and always have been entirely wrong about this.


Wallsy.

[rzm61]

It doesn't change the layout of the letters. It changes the layout of the keyboard. Did it take practice to become this stupid or is it a natural gift?

Wallsy.

You are clearly just stubborn.

The whole lay out of a keyboard doesn't change much when extra keys are added. The only thing they have to do is increase the size of the keyboard to accommodate the extra keys.
The actual letter keys an all, well they just stay the same. So wallsy just shut up. Please, it would be very nice.

Edit:
Also I love how you are just so quick to call someone stupid.
Again, if you try to debate someone or argue as soon as you call them stupid or what have you. Your credibility in the argument is thrown right out the window. You do not know who you are talking to on the other side therefor your assumption that someone is stupid is just lack of your intelligence...

[Wallsy]

The whole lay out of a keyboard doesn't change much when extra keys are added.

Thank you for admitting that you're wrong.


Also I love how you are just so quick to call someone stupid.

Quick? I've been arguing with you about many things for some time now. I feel I've had adequate time to reach this conclusion.


You do not know who you are talking to on the other side therefor your assumption that someone is stupid is just lack of your intelligence...

But I do know who I'm talking to. The same person I've been talking to in many previous discussions. Unless you're not really who you seem to be and are just pretending to be an idiot, in which case you're doing a fantastic job.


Wallsy.

[rzm61]

Wallsy,
1. Never said I was wrong.
2. You don't know me. At least on a personal level.
3. You are quite quick to jump to conclusions
4. How do you know I am not just putting on an "act" to make you think I am stupid/to piss you off?

[Wallsy]

1. Never said I was wrong.

Yes you did. I highlighted the relevant part of your post. You flat aut admitted that adding a key changes the layout, which is exactly the point I was making.


Wallsy.

[rzm61]

It doesn't change the whole layout though!

Extra space has to be added for the extra keys. The essential set up is still the same. Just a few extra keys.

[Wallsy]

It doesn't change the whole layout though!

Extra space has to be added for the extra keys. The essential set up is still the same. Just a few extra keys.

And the American spelling of "colour" only has one less letter; it's still a different spelling. Different is different, even if it's only a small difference.


Wallsy.

[sudikics]

First you said it was an old one, now you say it was modern. Maybe you mean something different by "old" to what I do.

Then I'm sorry for any confusion. By "old" I meant "currently no longer in use." It's a modern keyboard, but I haven't used it for a while.

Nevertheless, if it was a modern keyboard then I can only conclude that you are wrong about the connections and it just looked it had no AltGr key. The correct method for testing would be to install a keyboard layout in your OS that includes AltGr and see if the keyboard works, but it's probably a bit late for that now.

However, you could do that with the keyboard you're using now. My bet is you won't though, because then you might have to face the fact that you are and always have been entirely wrong about this.

Fine. Whatever. You win. I lose. Good job. I'll try installing the UK version later.

[rzm61]

And the American spelling of "colour" only has one less letter; it's still a different spelling. Different is different, even if it's only a small difference.


Wallsy.

Yes one less letter, however the meaning of the word doesn't change.
Stupid and pointless argument here.

Then I'm sorry for any confusion. By "old" I meant "currently no longer in use." It's a modern keyboard, but I haven't used it for a while.

I like how I caught onto this one and Wallsy didn't.

[Wallsy]

Yes one less letter, however the meaning of the word doesn't change.

Yes, unfortunately the analogy doesn't quite stretch this far.

And no matter how much you argue, US QWERTY 101 will always be a different layout to US QWERTY 104.


Wallsy.

[rzm61]

http://www.beachaudio.com/images/products/10654940.jpg

http://cdn.overstock.com/images/products/etilize/images/300/10585983.jpg

Okay, yes they change. But not by much.

[RealityRipple]

That keyboard has a... touchpad... built in? EWWW...

[rzm61]

Yeah I noticed that.
I really dislike touchpad mice.

[Loki]

@rzm61 - why do you continue to fight with Wallsy? He's right on this! Get over it mate.
He's making you look like an idiot! I don't want people to think that of you!

[rzm61]

Because despite the function keys I still feel the layout hasn't changed much. He is making it seem like they are two totally different keyboards. Which they really arent. Just a few extra keys. However I did say he was right.

[Wallsy]

He's making you look like an idiot!

Oh, I really can't take credit for that, he manages it quite well on his own.


Wallsy.

[sudikics]

Hey, Wallsy: I WAS WRONG. Completely and utterly wrong. I got US - International working. You win. Touché.