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Old December 7th, 2008, 08:15 PM   #1
Al Farabi
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Default A Common Objection Revived

Quote:
Originally Said by The Arguments Section of This Website
But can't Google's search results be manipulated sometimes? If Google were a true God, She could not be manipulated.
And the Bible, Koran and Torah are not manipulated? Googlists would argue that these books are some of the most mass manipulated works in existence. Yes, unfortunately Google's search results can sometimes be manipulated, but this is hardly anything new when it comes to religion.

This does not respond to the objection. The Bible, Koran, and Torah are not, the gods of their respective religions. They represent the ideas of the religions, and yes, can be manipulated, but the basic tenet still stands that part of the definition of a god is that they cannot be tampered with by humans. Google, as evidenced by it's change over the years, can be changed fundementally, and directly as a result of human action. It is not one's particular perception of Google that has changed over the years, it is Google itself.


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Old December 7th, 2008, 08:22 PM   #2
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Default Re: A Common Objection Revived

i would postulate that while Google can be manipulated by man(men et al) isn't this analgous to "God Answers Prayer"?, isn't prayer et al an attempt to manipulate 'God'?
like the religous writings of any faith, isn't the data to be interpreted by the user?
aren't the ideas inherent in the contained knowledge unchanged?

my bottom line is
knowledge like everything else
'it ain't what you got, it's how you use it.'
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Old December 7th, 2008, 08:57 PM   #3
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Default Re: A Common Objection Revived

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Originally Said by tagnostic View Post
isn't prayer et al an attempt to manipulate 'God'?
There you have the essential question of the reformation. Lutheranism holds that your prayers (and indeed any work of man...anything you do) is ultimately uninteresting to God and useless in your salvation.

And his is precisely because, unlike Google, man has no power over God.

I could go and smash all of Google's servers, and all the backups, and all the records, and utterly destroy Google. You could burn down every church, and destroy every bible and completely erase the idea of God from society, but God would remain. This is the basis of Lutheranism, and why Martin Luther's writings have been considered one ofthe main bases for secular society.

So yes, prayer is an attemt to manipulate god, but it is a useless one, since you can't manipulate God.

Quote:
Originally Said by tagnostic View Post
like the religous writings of any faith, isn't the data to be interpreted by the user?
aren't the ideas inherent in the contained knowledge unchanged?
I agree that the data, in that it is interpreted by the reader, is analagous to scriptures. However, that is where the similarity stops. Day by day, as more web pages are added, the ideas contained in google's search results change. The idea's that are available to interprate (if you read the whole internet) change every second of every day. It is this mutablility of purpose that makes Google dissimilar from religious scripture.

The Bible contains God's Truth. Google contains Man's.
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Old December 7th, 2008, 09:27 PM   #4
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Default Re: A Common Objection Revived

Quote:
Originally Said by Al Farabi View Post
There you have the essential question of the reformation. Lutheranism holds that your prayers (and indeed any work of man...anything you do) is ultimately uninteresting to God and useless in your salvation.

And his is precisely because, unlike Google, man has no power over God.

I could go and smash all of Google's servers, and all the backups, and all the records, and utterly destroy Google. You could burn down every church, and destroy every bible and completely erase the idea of God from society, but God would remain. This is the basis of Lutheranism, and why Martin Luther's writings have been considered one ofthe main bases for secular society.

So yes, prayer is an attemt to manipulate god, but it is a useless one, since you can't manipulate God.
therefor prayer, per se, is useless?

Quote:
I agree that the data, in that it is interpreted by the reader, is analagous to scriptures. However, that is where the similarity stops. Day by day, as more web pages are added, the ideas contained in google's search results change. The idea's that are available to interprate (if you read the whole internet) change every second of every day. It is this mutablility of purpose that makes Google dissimilar from religious scripture.
isn't this analgous to the different 'interpretations' of the bible (and or other writings which are ascribed to "god") as times change? as knowledge of the physical world accumulated the interpretation of most religous writings had to adapt or wither as a belief system.
reality is a hard wall for hypothesis to hit.

Quote:
The Bible contains God's Truth. Google contains Man's.
how would you confirm that, given that you have already stipulated that it (the bible) was written by men, interpreted by men and that men are fallible?
you being a man(human) are therefore fallible and ipso facto, your definition cannot trust your own judgement?
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Old December 7th, 2008, 10:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: A Common Objection Revived

Quote:
Originally Said by tagnostic View Post
therefor prayer, per se, is useless?
For salvation, yes. The reasons that you might pray (remorse, gratitude, care for another) are all still positive things though, and their expression (even in private) helps one become a better person, more in touch with themself. So no, prayer really isn't useless, it just doesn't change whether you will find salvation or not.


Quote:
Originally Said by tagnostic View Post
isn't this analgous to the different 'interpretations' of the bible (and or other writings which are ascribed to "god") as times change? as knowledge of the physical world accumulated the interpretation of most religous writings had to adapt or wither as a belief system.
All versions of the bible are essentially different translations of the same original text. The different translations exibit skew as the translation shows what the translator thought the spirit of the text was. This is particularly bad in the Bible because so much ambiguous language is used in the 'original' (I use quotes because I really am talking about the earliest known version, not the fist physical book).

The different results of Google are not different representations of the same original data set, they are similar representations of different data sets. Where the bible has differences of interpretation and a stable origin, Google has stable interpretation (because it is algorythmic) but a different data set each time.

Quote:
Originally Said by tagnostic View Post
how would you confirm that, given that you have already stipulated that it (the bible) was written by men, interpreted by men and that men are fallible?
you being a man(human) are therefore fallible and ipso facto, your definition cannot trust your own judgement?
At some point, you have to have faith. The Scientific Laws of Nature were written by men, interpreted by men, and men are fallible. People could lie about having tested theories and confirmed them. You just can't assume that.

Besides, that argument destroys the very foundation of collective progress. If you apply "man is fallible" to everything, then the only information with any meaning at all is information you personally discover and confirm.

It always comes back to faith that you aren't being misled, really, whether concerning science or God.
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Old December 8th, 2008, 01:15 AM   #6
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Default Re: A Common Objection Revived

Quote:
Originally Said by Al Farabi View Post
For salvation, yes. The reasons that you might pray (remorse, gratitude, care for another) are all still positive things though, and their expression (even in private) helps one become a better person, more in touch with themself. So no, prayer really isn't useless, it just doesn't change whether you will find salvation or not.
is that prayer?
or
self examination?

Quote:
All versions of the bible are essentially different translations of the same original text. The different translations exibit skew as the translation shows what the translator thought the spirit of the text was. This is particularly bad in the Bible because so much ambiguous language is used in the 'original' (I use quotes because I really am talking about the earliest known version, not the fist physical book).
where/what is the 'original'?
or is there more than one??
Quote:
The different results of Google are not different representations of the same original data set, they are similar representations of different data sets. Where the bible has differences of interpretation and a stable origin, Google has stable interpretation (because it is algorythmic) but a different data set each time.

but are they really?,
everyone has different desires in prayers, each inputs a different request, each gets a different interpretation as their mindset/desire and each is using the same data set (ie:the reality we deal with) as a start, (aside, "stable origin" hmmm{paranoiacs would wonder})

Quote:
At some point, you have to have faith. The Scientific Laws of Nature were written by men, interpreted by men, and men are fallible.
if there are others I and alot of ufologist's would love to hear about it

Quote:
People could lie about having tested theories and confirmed them. You just can't assume that.
Besides, that argument destroys the very foundation of collective progress. If you apply "man is fallible" to everything, then the only information with any meaning at all is information you personally discover and confirm.

It always comes back to faith that you aren't being misled, really, whether concerning science or God.
I have complete faith
it's just not in anything
humans can conceive
which would include a
deity.
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